Topic: Pikeville vs Marshall

[SuperAnjario]

All I know is this.....Danny is an alum of Marshall. He loves this University deeply. And at times I think its a little embarrassing to see the comments directed toward him on this message board. Especially knowing his connection to the University.

Be careful what you wish for. Like Dan Shoemaker used to say.....we are one bad hire away from being a really, really bad program.

Yeah, Dan isn't perfecr. He's missed on some recruits and probably should have let a few kids walk and used the scholly elsewhere. But that's not Dan. It is what it is.

I hope Dan and the team has a really good season. Go Herd!



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Every single team and program on the planet are a bad hire away from having terrible teams.  Shoemaker?s comment is not a revolutionary thought or insightful at all in any way.

One could easily argue the program is already bad now.

[DC01HERD]

All Dan does is tell stories. He needs to go out and recruit.

[ThunderingHerdFan]

Every single team and program on the planet are a bad hire away from having terrible teams.  Shoemaker?s comment is not a revolutionary thought or insightful at all in any way.

One could easily argue the program is already bad now.

1. Shoemaker's comments came while we were riding high and feeling perhaps a bit invincible. I wish he were here with us still to clarify but I believe the context would be that it fall fast and be awfully difficult to get back going in the right direction. That's still true for most schools but there are quite a few who have the resources to spend their way out of a bad hire. We probably do not.

2. 24-8 last year was for sure spoiled by the disappointing finish but if that's a bad program to you, then you're never going to be happy again. Ever. I don't say that "accepting mediocrity" either because the end of last year hurt. I want this program to be what Memphis was to CUSA. I want us to just go out and destroy the league night in, night out. I'm not sure that's realistic. The reasonable goal is somewhere in between. As always, be careful what you wish for.

[Flat Tire 2]

1. Shoemaker's comments came while we were riding high and feeling perhaps a bit invincible. I wish he were here with us still to clarify but I believe the context would be that it fall fast and be awfully difficult to get back going in the right direction. That's still true for most schools but there are quite a few who have the resources to spend their way out of a bad hire. We probably do not.

2. 24-8 last year was for sure spoiled by the disappointing finish but if that's a bad program to you, then you're never going to be happy again. Ever. I don't say that "accepting mediocrity" either because the end of last year hurt. I want this program to be what Memphis was to CUSA. I want us to just go out and destroy the league night in, night out. I'm not sure that's realistic. The reasonable goal is somewhere in between. As always, be careful what you wish for.

That is the point in basketball. You can schedule a lot of wins against cupcakes and play in a weak conference and have a great record. The goal should be to win the championship (for a NIT Bid) or the conference tournament which gives you a bid to The Big Dance. Being a "Memphis" might not be reasonable goal, but only doing once in 9 years is unacceptable. We are no where  near "the reasonable goal of somewhere in between" after nine years.

[REL70]

That is the point in basketball. You can schedule a lot of wins against cupcakes and play in a weak conference and have a great record. The goal should be to win the championship (for a NIT Bid) or the conference tournament which gives you a bid to The Big Dance. Being a "Memphis" might not be reasonable goal, but only doing once in 9 years is unacceptable. We are no where  near "the reasonable goal of somewhere in between" after nine years.

Winning the regular season conference title doesn't get you automatically in the NIT this year.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2023-10-27/nit-board-announces-changes-nit-and-use-experimental-rules

[ThunderingHerdFan]

That is the point in basketball. You can schedule a lot of wins against cupcakes and play in a weak conference and have a great record. The goal should be to win the championship (for a NIT Bid) or the conference tournament which gives you a bid to The Big Dance. Being a "Memphis" might not be reasonable goal, but only doing once in 9 years is unacceptable. We are no where  near "the reasonable goal of somewhere in between" after nine years.

And everything you just described explains why the "bad program" line from earlier in the thread is completely assinine. The end of last year was disappointing, to absolutely everyone, I'm sure.

There's a big difference in a near miss and being far away. In many ways, it's the worst place to be. You're too good to make big changes but you're not bad enough to make serious changes. It's not easy for any school at our level.

[herdorbust2]

And everything you just described explains why the "bad program" line from earlier in the thread is completely assinine. The end of last year was disappointing, to absolutely everyone, I'm sure.

There's a big difference in a near miss and being far away. In many ways, it's the worst place to be. You're too good to make big changes but you're not bad enough to make serious changes. It's not easy for any school at our level.

Why are you basing it on one year? Did you see the finishes we have had under Danny? The numbers that keep popping up are 6th and 12th. And it wasn't a disappointment just last year. It's been 3 years since we have even won a conference tournament game.

[Flat Tire 2]

And everything you just described explains why the "bad program" line from earlier in the thread is completely assinine. The end of last year was disappointing, to absolutely everyone, I'm sure.

There's a big difference in a near miss and being far away. In many ways, it's the worst place to be. You're too good to make big changes but you're not bad enough to make serious changes. It's not easy for any school at our level.

If the goal is to make it to the post season (not a pay for play deal) then we have failed. Only having one appearance in the post season in nine years and that is 0.11% of reaching the goal. Most of the conference standings have been in fourth  or sixth place average finish. This is unacceptable to any objective person. There are posters that are emotionally invested in the coach and I get that, but the coach is under performing and the record is there to prove the point. If some are happy with winning some games and not being a consistent challenger for the conference championship, so be it. There are also posters that want Huff fired after three seasons for not winning a championship. I think every sport at MU should be playing championships and we have just let some coaches go for not reaching this goal. Basketball should be held to the same standard.

[Flat Tire 2]

Winning the regular season conference title doesn't get you automatically in the NIT this year.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2023-10-27/nit-board-announces-changes-nit-and-use-experimental-rules

I know that, but Dan has never achieved that goal in nine years when it was available.

[goherd24]

That is the point in basketball. You can schedule a lot of wins against cupcakes and play in a weak conference and have a great record. The goal should be to win the championship (for a NIT Bid) or the conference tournament which gives you a bid to The Big Dance. Being a "Memphis" might not be reasonable goal, but only doing once in 9 years is unacceptable. We are no where  near "the reasonable goal of somewhere in between" after nine years.

How bout once in 40 years? Because the once was the same coach. I'm confused why we should expect our basketball program, to win a title every season when we have 1 in 4 decades? And want to run off the guy that did that lol. He is also the only coach that's played for a regular season conference title the last game in 4 decades too.

So he gets us to the ncaa and wins our first game, then, he's fired if we don't do it every year? Some of you all are somethin else. I believe we will win our fair share of sunbelt titles and should expect to do so, like wku did while they were here, but you have to give the man a chance. We were outgunned in the ole cusa. Winning it was a huge accomplishment, and we played for another, and 2020 was looking real good until they cancelled the tournament. Last year was a huge disappointment to lose to Texas state but they got hot and couldn't miss a 3 when they were one of the worst shooting teams in the league. It happens, it sucks, but if you fire a guy at Marshall that went 24-8, finished 2nd in the league missing the title by losing the last game, then you're nuts. If he goes 10-20 this year then fire him. Until then, I'll wait to see how we do.

It could be, and has been, way worse than Dan, who is hard to argue, is not at least our 2nd best coach since 1950. And huck cheated and ran a dirty program.

[svherd]

Winning the regular season conference title doesn't get you automatically in the NIT this year.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2023-10-27/nit-board-announces-changes-nit-and-use-experimental-rules

Glad we don't have that goal anymore. Oh wait, we never did. Lol!
I still can't wrap my mind around the regular season not having more value for Dan and this program.

[herdorbust2]

How bout once in 40 years? Because the once was the same coach. I'm confused why we should expect our basketball program, to win a title every season when we have 1 in 4 decades? And want to run off the guy that did that lol. He is also the only coach that's played for a regular season conference title the last game in 4 decades too.

So he gets us to the ncaa and wins our first game, then, he's fired if we don't do it every year? Some of you all are somethin else. I believe we will win our fair share of sunbelt titles and should expect to do so, like wku did while they were here, but you have to give the man a chance. We were outgunned in the ole cusa. Winning it was a huge accomplishment, and we played for another, and 2020 was looking real good until they cancelled the tournament. Last year was a huge disappointment to lose to Texas state but they got hot and couldn't miss a 3 when they were one of the worst shooting teams in the league. It happens, it sucks, but if you fire a guy at Marshall that went 24-8, finished 2nd in the league missing the title by losing the last game, then you're nuts. If he goes 10-20 this year then fire him. Until then, I'll wait to see how we do.

It could be, and has been, way worse than Dan, who is hard to argue, is not at least our 2nd best coach since 1950. And huck cheated and ran a dirty program.

It waould have been huge in the CUSA we first came into. It wasn't huge in CUSA 3.0. People like you is why the program will never be better. Always being satisfied with one title in 10 years because we didn't get any back in the previous 30. I don't care what anyone says, finishing 6.6 average over 9 years is pathetic. Going 12-22 in 2021 was pathetic. And losing to Rice and Texas st In the first tournament game in the last 2 years is pathetic. You can't live off that one year that Elmore got it done for him forever. Time to step up or hit the road.

[ThunderingHerdFan]

It waould have been huge in the CUSA we first came into. It wasn't huge in CUSA 3.0. People like you is why the program will never be better. Always being satisfied with one title in 10 years because we didn't get any back in the previous 30. I don't care what anyone says, finishing 6.6 average over 9 years is pathetic. Going 12-22 in 2021 was pathetic. And losing to Rice and Texas st In the first tournament game in the last 2 years is pathetic. You can't live off that one year that Elmore got it done for him forever. Time to step up or hit the road.

It's people like you that want to create a revolving door of coaches, and makes the job unattractive to coaching candidates.

[herdorbust2]

It's people like you that want to create a revolving door of coaches, and makes the job unattractive to coaching candidates.

Lol!!! Nah I just want Marshall to be a big dog in a conference that isn't even known for basketball. No excuse!!! But as long as Dan yucks it up it's all well.

[HoPPy785]

It waould have been huge in the CUSA we first came into. It wasn't huge in CUSA 3.0. People like you is why the program will never be better. Always being satisfied with one title in 10 years because we didn't get any back in the previous 30. I don't care what anyone says, finishing 6.6 average over 9 years is pathetic. Going 12-22 in 2021 was pathetic. And losing to Rice and Texas st In the first tournament game in the last 2 years is pathetic. You can't live off that one year that Elmore got it done for him forever. Time to step up or hit the road.

Weren't you the one who didn't want to leave CUSA 3.0 because CUSA 3.0 was full of programs with history, name value and quality teams? Now it was a weak conference to fit your narrative? This isn't to defend Dan, just pointing it out.

[herdorbust2]

Weren't you the one who didn't want to leave CUSA 3.0 because CUSA 3.0 was full of programs with history, name value and quality teams? Now it was a weak conference to fit your narrative? This isn't to defend Dan, just pointing it out.

Don't twist it. I said it was better than the sunbelt and had better name teams. We are in a no name crap conference now and CUSA was a step above that with UAB, WKU, UTEP, Louisiana tech etc. but I wouldn't call it a brutal conference. But nice try Danno!!!

[herdinphilly]

I think Herd fans are more hostile to one another than any other fan board I?ve ever been on. (I?m sure someone will tell me that if I don?t like it then leave).

[SuperAnjario]

1. Shoemaker's comments came while we were riding high and feeling perhaps a bit invincible. I wish he were here with us still to clarify but I believe the context would be that it fall fast and be awfully difficult to get back going in the right direction. That's still true for most schools but there are quite a few who have the resources to spend their way out of a bad hire. We probably do not.

2. 24-8 last year was for sure spoiled by the disappointing finish but if that's a bad program to you, then you're never going to be happy again. Ever. I don't say that "accepting mediocrity" either because the end of last year hurt. I want this program to be what Memphis was to CUSA. I want us to just go out and destroy the league night in, night out. I'm not sure that's realistic. The reasonable goal is somewhere in between. As always, be careful what you wish for.

As to 1, I?ll double down and say the thought wasn?t even close to insightful or original.

As to 2, Dan himself stupidly downplays the regular season, and places all his eggs in the tournament.  Despite having a chance to win the regular season and choking, he lost as a favorite with a decent lead in the first game of the conference tournament in a bad league.  The regular season was also inflated by a really embarrassing schedule.  So, no, last year didn?t come close to cutting it.

[SuperAnjario]

How bout once in 40 years? Because the once was the same coach. I'm confused why we should expect our basketball program, to win a title every season when we have 1 in 4 decades? And want to run off the guy that did that lol. He is also the only coach that's played for a regular season conference title the last game in 4 decades too.

So he gets us to the ncaa and wins our first game, then, he's fired if we don't do it every year? Some of you all are somethin else. I believe we will win our fair share of sunbelt titles and should expect to do so, like wku did while they were here, but you have to give the man a chance. We were outgunned in the ole cusa. Winning it was a huge accomplishment, and we played for another, and 2020 was looking real good until they cancelled the tournament. Last year was a huge disappointment to lose to Texas state but they got hot and couldn't miss a 3 when they were one of the worst shooting teams in the league. It happens, it sucks, but if you fire a guy at Marshall that went 24-8, finished 2nd in the league missing the title by losing the last game, then you're nuts. If he goes 10-20 this year then fire him. Until then, I'll wait to see how we do.

It could be, and has been, way worse than Dan, who is hard to argue, is not at least our 2nd best coach since 1950. And huck cheated and ran a dirty program.

We can agree to strongly disagree on Dan.  Just hope you are right about Huff being gone.

[Flat Tire 2]

How bout once in 40 years? Because the once was the same coach. I'm confused why we should expect our basketball program, to win a title every season when we have 1 in 4 decades? And want to run off the guy that did that lol. He is also the only coach that's played for a regular season conference title the last game in 4 decades too.

So he gets us to the ncaa and wins our first game, then, he's fired if we don't do it every year? Some of you all are somethin else. I believe we will win our fair share of sunbelt titles and should expect to do so, like wku did while they were here, but you have to give the man a chance. We were outgunned in the ole cusa. Winning it was a huge accomplishment, and we played for another, and 2020 was looking real good until they cancelled the tournament. Last year was a huge disappointment to lose to Texas state but they got hot and couldn't miss a 3 when they were one of the worst shooting teams in the league. It happens, it sucks, but if you fire a guy at Marshall that went 24-8, finished 2nd in the league missing the title by losing the last game, then you're nuts. If he goes 10-20 this year then fire him. Until then, I'll wait to see how we do.

It could be, and has been, way worse than Dan, who is hard to argue, is not at least our 2nd best coach since 1950. And huck cheated and ran a dirty program.

 You are correct we have some really bad coaches over the years at MU (including football hires) and Dan is just a little better than a few of them. That is no reason to keep him; MU should hire a good coach not a high school coach. Let's look at the last 40 years of MU coaches. Do you really think Dan is a better coach than Huckabay; Altman and Donavan? Two of those coaches have made multiple trips to the NCAA and one has won TWO National Championship. Two of the coaches were hired away by big time programs, nobody wants to hire Dan. I would say Dan is on the same level as Greg White who played in much tougher, at the time, conference and before the The Big Dance expanded the field. Greg actually convinced Dan to hire Elmore when Dan didn't want Elmore in the program.

Edit: If you back to 1950's, I am sure most older fans would rate Ellis Johnson and Carl Tacy as better coaches than Dan. Ellis took The Herd to semifinals of the NIT when it was really good tournament. Carl took The Herd to a top 10 AP poll rating (highest in school history) and then had a good ACC career at Wake Forest competing against Dean Smith and Duke.

Again, once in 9 years he did his job which is about .11% success rate. Are you happy with Huff who has the same winning % and hasn't won a conference championship?

[Flat Tire 2]

It's people like you that want to create a revolving door of coaches, and makes the job unattractive to coaching candidates.

Well, if the coach wins and is hired by a larger program that shows that you have a successful program. That makes it very attractive to coaching candidates. I would love to have that revolving door of coaches!

We are now stuck with a coach that larger programs have no interest in hiring.

[ThunderingHerdFan]

As to 1, I?ll double down and say the thought wasn?t even close to insightful or original.

As to 2, Dan himself stupidly downplays the regular season, and places all his eggs in the tournament.  Despite having a chance to win the regular season and choking, he lost as a favorite with a decent lead in the first game of the conference tournament in a bad league.  The regular season was also inflated by a really embarrassing schedule.  So, no, last year didn?t come close to cutting it.

I'm not sure where you stood on it but how did you feel when Marshall was 24-6?  Because we already had some on here hijacking every thread then to down the program. Would you have felt any differently had Marshall beat ODU and then lost in say, the semifinals?  No, you would be making yourself miserable and attempting to make everyone around you miserable, too. You don't know what you want. You think you do, but you don't.

And you haven't a single original thought. Just parroting another poster here. The Shoemaker reference another poster made clearly touched a nerve with you. Seems personal. There's no room for personal in a successful athletic department.

[chris88]

Last year it was a good year but not a great year. For having Sb and NBA caliber POY and another 1st team all conf AND FR of year most would have expected more. 24-6 or whatever has to be considered in context of schedule. 363 D1 teams. Overall SOS 297. OOC SOS 331. Quad 1 wins zero, Quad 2 wins 1, Quad 4 wins 13. That's 13 wins vs bottom 25% of teams in nation. And we were pretty lucky to not lose a couple more. How many teams would have had 20 wins with our schedule? Or a better question might be how many wouldn't? As I've said many times, if you want to be a top 100 caliber program than schedule and recruit like one. If you don't it's all just smoke and mirrors.

The line by DD was the schedule was to build confidence for the conference and post season tourney. That didn't really work out. The new rules for NIT and the way the NCAA committee works is well known. Play a tough schedule and beat people in top two quads and you will be rewarded all else being equal (bad losses do matter). No reason MU BB who has better fan support than most of league shouldn't be a perennial top four finisher in SB with an NIT or NCAA bid every 3-4 years. Except for baseball to this point, I see no reason that shouldn't be the standard for all of our sports. Reminds me of all the people who said Notre Dame can't get best recruits and compete nationally anymore because academic standards are too high. Then they hired Brian Kelly and he found a way. Just because it could always be worse doesn't mean it couldn't be better.

[svherd]

Last year it was a good year but not a great year. For having Sb and NBA caliber POY and another 1st team all conf AND FR of year most would have expected more. 24-6 or whatever has to be considered in context of schedule. 363 D1 teams. Overall SOS 297. OOC SOS 331. Quad 1 wins zero, Quad 2 wins 1, Quad 4 wins 13. That's 13 wins vs bottom 25% of teams in nation. And we were pretty lucky to not lose a couple more. How many teams would have had 20 wins with our schedule? Or a better question might be how many wouldn't? As I've said many times, if you want to be a top 100 caliber program than schedule and recruit like one. If you don't it's all just smoke and mirrors.

The line by DD was the schedule was to build confidence for the conference and post season tourney. That didn't really work out. The new rules for NIT and the way the NCAA committee works is well known. Play a tough schedule and beat people in top two quads and you will be rewarded all else being equal (bad losses do matter). No reason MU BB who has better fan support than most of league shouldn't be a perennial top four finisher in SB with an NIT or NCAA bid every 3-4 years. Except for baseball to this point, I see no reason that shouldn't be the standard for all of our sports. Reminds me of all the people who said Notre Dame can't get best recruits and compete nationally anymore because academic standards are too high. Then they hired Brian Kelly and he found a way. Just because it could always be worse doesn't mean it couldn't be better.

Well said.

[SuperAnjario]

I'm not sure where you stood on it but how did you feel when Marshall was 24-6?  Because we already had some on here hijacking every thread then to down the program. Would you have felt any differently had Marshall beat ODU and then lost in say, the semifinals?  No, you would be making yourself miserable and attempting to make everyone around you miserable, too. You don't know what you want. You think you do, but you don't.

And you haven't a single original thought. Just parroting another poster here. The Shoemaker reference another poster made clearly touched a nerve with you. Seems personal. There's no room for personal in a successful athletic department.

K?good talk.