Topic: I try to be reasonable...

[Photo by]

..but it gets more difficult every day.

I don't think the ship is in as quite as bad trouble as it appears...although we are takin' on water fast, the iceberg is straight ahead, and an enemy sub is loading torpedoes.

In reality we should be 2-3 and except for a few plays we would be. The problem is that we should have competitive in the other games.

Part of our problem is systemic. Snyder's philosophy appears to be to put the best athletes on the field and win with the talent. Read Ohio State. The problem with this philosophy is that we are a year or two from having the talent with the experience to play that type of game. The system will eventually work. Getting there is painful, and the failure during building disenfranchises the fan base and will eventually hurt recruiting. Won't do donations a lot of good either.

Our offensive game plan seems to get a lot better when we get behind. We start taking more risks and they pay off. We have a good amount of talent on offense and they will have to carry the load this season. But they need to take control of the game and not play from behind. We seem to be a run first then pass team. Thinking that the run will set up the pass but what happens is that we get behind and suddenly the advantage of running first is minimized. By the time we open things up the defense is not only behind, they are winded.

Instead of a run-pass philosophy. We probably need to use the short routes to set up the run, then run to set up play action, then play action to go deep. At that point you can run anything. Eat clock on the ground or pile up the points.

Defensively we are not just short of bodies, we are short of playmakers. We're playing baseball without a base stealer and a clean up hitter. We have a team of A. C. Greens and no Magic, Kareem, and Worthy. It's not that the players we have don't play smart or hard, they are in there too much and have to do things they have never done. Add to that week start our offense has and these guys are on there heels from the get-go and the offense is sticking them in a hole.

I think we suffer some from young position coaches. Now these are the guys that bring in the great talent. But the younger the instructor, regardless of discipline--sports, writing, carpentry, surgery, taxidermy, whatever--the greater the emphasis on emotion and less on technique. Good news here is that if they are smart they are learning from their mistakes. Randy Sanders was doing a huge amount of things wrong at Tennessee, now he's at UK and a genius. He learned from his mistakes.

A lot is made of specific plays, either the call or to indict the player. Our guys don't make any more mistakes than any other player with similar experience. They just stick out when you lose. Particularly on offense. Every center makes some bad snaps, every WR busts on read and goes the wrong way. It happens, every game, every where, every level. When someone makes a mistake the coaches shouldn't bench them and the fans need not freak out and call for their head.

We had over 400 yards of offense. The O played well enough to win. We gave up over 450 yards on defense. Now the Offense didn't help the defense with field position or spotting the D some points. This is a systemic problem not an execution problem. IMO

IMO Mark needs to take a page from John Wooden's book and play the game based on the team he has. He can play the game he wants when Lew gets in school. The offense has to be more productive early. Let the D play with a lead. Run the ball when the other team is on their heels. Steve Spurrier's teams all had great running stats. They all came in the second half, when the Gators had a lead.

I'm not so sure anyone needs fired, but most everyone needs to do things a little differently.

We will no doubt win some games we shouldn't...but this year is gonna be a long season.

[Marshall Faithful]

I agree with a lot of that.  Just remember, 63% of this team is So and Fr. plus the injuries to key positions.

[IM4DHERD]

Part of our problem is systemic. Snyder's philosophy appears to be to put the best athletes on the field and win with the talent. Read Ohio State. The problem with this philosophy is that we are a year or two from having the talent with the experience to play that type of game. The system will eventually work

The problem with this reasoning is the assumption that we are recruiting and getting  better athletes than anyone else and that their talent will eventually overshadow weaknesses in coaching, etc.  We are seeing better talent than ever before. but not any better talent than is going to Tulsa, So Miss, UCF, ECU, etc.  Our conference's Southern footprint and and a step up in competition in CUSA are the reasons that we are seeing talent above that we saw while in 1-AA or the MAC, not the recruiting ability of our young coaches.

[W0lfman]

We end up 2-10 and we'll really get to see if this staff can recruit.

[lovetheherd2]

There's just way too many problems & issues with this team. Win, lose or draw, I will still bleed green but....

There are coaching issues. Some of the problems with penalties & critical mistakes at critical times should have worked out by now. Some of the coaches are screamers instead of teachers and the OL has never performed as it should as a team. There is some talent there but ....

We come out flat EVERY freakin' game except for WVU. I keep waiting for that team to start another game the same way.

Both OL & DL need more bodies with strength and speed. It starts up front and we have been unable to mount any consistent product on either line all year.

Without a decent pass rush, the speed in the secondary is unable to stay with any receiver and has to play so far off the receiver, well.... Only when the field is shortened to the red zone can we stay with the receivers. Then it's too late, they can either run it in or send the 6'6" or taller guy against the 5'9" backs and it's all over.

Now it looks like there's a LOT of finger pointing in the game, by coaches & players alike. Yelling and confrontations ....

It's obvious the zero & 5 with a possible zero, one or two wins is tearing up the staff, the players as well as fans.

It's just sad.......

[GreenOne]

Because I have been unable to even see a game this season until last night, I didn't know quite what to think about all the screaming on here. After watching last night's game and comparing it to the posts, here is what I think:

1. Offensively, we looked pretty decent. I do think we need to start throwing right out of the gate, and let that open up the run. I noticed last night that we ran the ball really well, I hope we can keep that up.

2. Defensively, I saw a group of players that are way too young, with guys playing only because of lack of depth and injuries to players ahead of them. We had a walk on starting at defensive tackle last night, and a converted fullback starting at MLB. Not a good combination there.
Because we have no pass rush, we are forced to play zone in the secondary, keep everything in front of us and try to force offenses to go a long way, and hope for a mistake.

3. Morris looks good, and in charge. Passmore and Slate looked great. Darius Marshall is good now, will be even better and just needs to shake the fumble bug. Zearick Matthews is a great corner, and made some great plays on the ball and in space. I hope we can get more like him.

4. Mistakes at key times are what killed us, and have been killing us. The bad snap on the last drive, the WR fouling up the route on the last play, the fumbled snap on the FG - take away any one of those things and the outcome is probably different. We have to develop the smarts and maturity to stop those goofs and overcome them when we do.

I don't think the rest of this season is going to pretty, but I'm not going to give up on the Herd.

[Garbanjo]

The offense has to carry this team. We have enough talent and experience on offense to be very good. Unfortunately, we are not, and that falls on the coaches.

We only scored 14 points against Memphis. Pathetic.

Winners win. Losers make excuses..........

[svherd]

You're right Wolf, Snyder and staff will definately have their work cut out for them in recruiting. It will be a tough sell for sure. Not many quality kids want to go to a program that has had 3 straight losing seasons, regardless of our past. I would look for them to recruit Juco DL and OL very heavily, at least they should.
We've got to open up the offense. Our kids always seem a step slower as well.

[Photo by]

...The problem with this reasoning is the assumption that we are recruiting and getting  better athletes than anyone else and that their talent will eventually overshadow weaknesses in coaching, etc.  We are seeing better talent than ever before. but not any better talent than is going to Tulsa, So Miss, UCF, ECU, etc.  Our conference's Southern footprint and and a step up in competition in CUSA are the reasons that we are seeing talent above that we saw while in 1-AA or the MAC, not the recruiting ability of our young coaches.

Good point. I think we are recruiting on par with the best teams in the CUSA but that's based on what I read on the Internet...it is a bit suspect. Although I will say that I had a coach tell me that there is a lot of defensive talent in the pipe. It's either young, redshirted, not on campus yet, or waiting to the clearinghouse.

[GreenSteve]

I agree with you photo...as usual.

My concern is that Snyder not lose the team.

They are getting used to losing, and it seems they are trying to find ways to lose.

O'Leary turned that around at UCF...remember, they're not far removed from an 0-13 record in a weaker league. But O'Leary has been around a while. Here's where Snyder has to grow up quick, or he will lose the team.

My thoughts.

GS.

[Green Dog]

Where is all this "talent" you guys speak of?

Where are these great recruits I keep reading about? I've only seen three or four actually show results on the field.

Any team we had on the Field during our MAC days could beat this team to a pulp. Most if not all our IAA teams from the 90's could embarrass this bunch. You tellin' me New Hampshire is better than the great IAA teams we fielded in the 90's?

We had NFL talent in our MAC days and IAA. What happened to that kind of talent? I don't see it on the field now. (Other than one TE.)

Talented at what? Running and jumping? We need talented football players. Not a handful of individuals who can run fast and jump high.

I guess I'm lost or blind. I just don't see all this "talent" so many others keep raging about.

Perhaps its all hidden from view right now? I certainly hope so.

[Up5491yours]

Why is it that some of you have no idea what it takes to build a football team yet you continuosly tell the rest of us that you do?  Talent has no bearing on the outcome of the game if the talent on the field is the wrong talent for the scheme implemented.  It is not enough to recruit good players if they don't fit into the game plan.   Players need to understand fully what is expected from them and have the ability to execute that plan.  And it starts with the Head Coach.  He has to have a philosophy and clearly communicate that philosophy to the asst. coaches and the players.   If his only philosophy is to recruit talented players and then decide on a week to week basis what to do with them he will fail as a head coach.   And that is Mark Snyder, a career asst. coach who is still waiting for someone to communicate to him what the philosophy is.  No one is going to until he is an asst. again.   He has no identity as a head coach except as a loser.    It is now 28 games into his tenure and does anybody know what his philosophy is?   What offense does he want to run?   What defense does he want to run?  Does anyone know?   I know I don't.   Do you believe that the players do?   The primary job of the Head Coach is to make decisions and our Mark Snyder just cannot do it, period.

[GreenOne]

Sure, I know what he wants to run - all you have to do is watch a game.

Based on last night, he wants to run a spread offense that focuses on short passing to control the ball, along with running well and using short screens to move the ball.

Defensively, our base is a 4-3; last night, because of the usual sets by Memphis, we ran most of the night in the nickle, and some dime coverages.
Because of injuries, we are unable to mount much of a pass rush, so we play quite a bit of zone, in the hopes that we can force the offense to stay short and in front of us. We might want to pressure the QB, but our personnel unfortunately are not allowing us to use much of a pressure defense at this time.

[banker]

Photo, that was a great post and there is only one problem I see and that is for us to be effective Snyder has to be willing to be flexible and personally, it appears to me, he is bullheaded.

Many people think we lack an identity.  I think we have an identity, I just think people don't want to see it.  We are a ball control, field position team that will be successful based on our ability to dictate tempo, limit mistakes, and capitalize on the mistakes of our opponents.  I believe that, in a nutshell, is Mark Snyder's philosophy.  I believe he is steadfast in that plan.

Of course the problem with that is we make a lot of mistakes, we don't force turnovers, and are very shakey on special teams.  Hence, the need for Snyder to change, but he won't because he still has a young man's pride knowing that his philosiphy will work if the players just execute perfectly (it has to be perfect because we don't have a talent advantage on anyone left on the schedule).

Snyder tells the fans what he thinks they want to hear: we are going to open up the offense, we are going to play more man coverage and pressure the QB, we are going to play an aggressive, attacking defense.  We have all heard it, but come game day he always does the same thing because that is our identity as dictated by our head coach.

[Up5491yours]

We don't want to be that team and will never win trying to be that team.

Why is Larry Kueck still the OC if Snyder wants to run the spread offense?

Is the option play a part of our Marshall offense that Kueck runs?

A ball control offense?   Where is our running game?  


You make my point for me.  This is not about one game, it is about an entire season.  Since Snyder has been here we have run the Marshall offense that Pennington and Leftwich ran, an option offense with Morris and Bradshaw running mostly, a line up and pound the ball attack with mostly running plays to the RB, a spread type offense with numerous WR screens, and a hybrid type with both a spread formation and and option formation.  And now lets throw in the Jim Grobe style from last year's Wake Forest team.  How can any offensive line progress and develop as a unit when we change blocking schemes every week?  

If Snyder's philosophy is what you say it is then he needs to move on because we don't want that style of play and we will never win with that style of play.  And before you declare yourself all-knowing and of superior intellect to all others, if this style of play would work here at MU, then why are no other successful mid-major programs using it?

[Photo by]

...I see and that is for us to be effective Snyder has to be willing to be flexible and personally, it appears to me, he is bullheaded.

Many people think we lack an identity.  I think we have an identity, I just think people don't want to see it.  We are a ball control, field position team that will be successful based on our ability to dictate tempo, limit mistakes, and capitalize on the mistakes of our opponents.  I believe that, in a nutshell, is Mark Snyder's philosophy.  I believe he is steadfast in that plan....

I think you are basically right. Some of that is because he knows he doesn't have the horses on D and ball control is the way to make life easier on them. But IMO everyone knows that. We have to come out throwing the short and medium stuff, then run, then play action.

[bighat]

I agree with your post but I would like to add that young players make mistakes and give you a roller coaster ride.  Injuries have decimated the defense.  Mix this in with the mistakes that the veteran's have made and you get 0-5.  Patience is not one of our fan's virtues.

[Photo by]

...I would like to add that young players make mistakes and give you a roller coaster ride.  Injuries have decimated the defense.  Mix this in with the mistakes that the veteran's have made and you get 0-5.  Patience is not one of our fan's virtues.

Agreed. The good news there is that sometime the young player will play incredibly well....I'm looking forward to that.

As for the fans patience, it's a tough thing to do. It takes a long time to build a business, develop a skill, build a reputation, build a house, etc. Most of us can understand those things but we expect miracles from our athletic teams.

I think patience will be rewarded for the football team. I'm not ready to throw the coaches under the bus, but they need to figure out what they are doing wrong and fix those things. My problem at this point is not that they are losing, but that they aren't playing up to their potential across the board.--but even on that point, I personally, don't have the skills to assess football talent at this level.

[GreenOne]

We don't want to be that team and will never win trying to be that team.

Why is Larry Kueck still the OC if Snyder wants to run the spread offense?

Is the option play a part of our Marshall offense that Kueck runs?

A ball control offense?   Where is our running game?  


You make my point for me.  This is not about one game, it is about an entire season.  Since Snyder has been here we have run the Marshall offense that Pennington and Leftwich ran, an option offense with Morris and Bradshaw running mostly, a line up and pound the ball attack with mostly running plays to the RB, a spread type offense with numerous WR screens, and a hybrid type with both a spread formation and and option formation.  And now lets throw in the Jim Grobe style from last year's Wake Forest team.  How can any offensive line progress and develop as a unit when we change blocking schemes every week?  

If Snyder's philosophy is what you say it is then he needs to move on because we don't want that style of play and we will never win with that style of play.  And before you declare yourself all-knowing and of superior intellect to all others, if this style of play would work here at MU, then why are no other successful mid-major programs using it?

I'm not all knowing, I just know what I see. Yes, they have run all those things that you quoted, but I don't think that indicates that they don't know what they're doing. I think the option came in because Morris is a legit 4.4 or 4.5, and they thought it looked pretty good. Also, we weren't exactly lighting it up in the air before, so we went to a ground based attack - playing to our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses.
As for your comment about what type of team "we" don't want to be and can't ever win playing that way, I'll opine that you don't really know any more about it than I do. I have no idea what "WE" want to be and don't want to be.
Frankly, if we could win running the blasted Wing T, I'm all for it.

I think you and I have different ideas about what a spread offense is; if you are lining up with three WRs, a single RB and a TE, you are by definition a spread offense of some kind. Just because we don't run the zone read every play does not mean we are not a spread offense. It also doesn't mean that you can't run differing formations.

Lastly, I am about done reading your posts anyway. Even your handle is borderline offensive; most of your posts are the bashing/screaming variety anyway, with very little positive to offer. Yes, I know things aren't going well, but getting on here and screaming "FIRE SNYDER" every time you get fired up isn't helping anyone, and is getting awfully hard to read all the time.

So, UpYours, have a nice day, and try to remember that the sun will come up tomorrow no matter how frustrated you might be with our beloved Herd.

[Photo by]

...what a spread offense is; if you are lining up with three WRs, a single RB and a TE, you are by definition a spread offense of some kind. Just because we don't run the zone read every play does not mean we are not a spread offense. It also doesn't mean that you can't run differing formations....

Not to hijack my own thread, but the X & O's stuff is pretty interesting. But the above formation isn't necessarily the spread unless the line is taking wide splits, is it not.

You can run the West Coast offense out of the above formation with pretty much the blocking schemes we all are used to. But the spread (both the spread and the spread option) are predicated on make one-on-one battles at every position. To do that you spread the line out a bit more to prevent the defense from using stunts and double teams to gain an isolated advantage. Am I correct or just showing my lack of understanding?

[GreenOne]

"You can run the West Coast offense out of the above formation with pretty much the blocking schemes we all are used to. But the spread (both the spread and the spread option) are predicated on make one-on-one battles at every position. To do that you spread the line out a bit more to prevent the defense from using stunts and double teams to gain an isolated advantage. Am I correct or just showing my lack of understanding?"

I'm no expert, but I think you're right. Still, I've always thought that the spread/spread option was predicated on getting those one on ones at the skill postions; O Line play could be a zone blocking scheme or a traditional one.
I'll have to watch Florida next time they are on TV and get a look at how they line up. I'd guess since they are Urban Meyer's team, they probably run that offense the way it is supposed to be run.
We need to have an Xs and Os thread on here sometimes; I always find this stuff really interesting.

[Photo by]

...I'll have to watch Florida next time they are on TV and get a look at how they line up. I'd guess since they are Urban Meyer's team, they probably run that offense the way it is supposed to be run.
We need to have an Xs and Os thread on here sometimes; I always find this stuff really interesting.

I'm with you there. Living in SEC land all the talk is about the Gators. Last year they ran the spread. Basically a passing offense with Leak. Still predicated on getting those one-on-one matchups. This year they run the spread option with Tebow. As I understand it, RR and his staff visited Gainsville this summer to pick up pointers on working more passing into the game. Ironic since RR is generally credited with inventing the spread option.

IMO most people defend the spread incorrectly. They defend it like they would the triple option, where assignment football, evryone staying at home and holding their ground is the way to beat it. It seems to me that is what they want you to do. Seems to me the way to beat it is to blitz, stunt, double team, spy, do whatever you can to create a mismatch that has you guys overwhelming theirs and not allowing the skill guy to make a play one-one-one.

Maybe vcoach will chime in on this thread....that boy knows his X's and O's.

[mr_ash_1995]

they need to figure out what they are doing wrong and fix those things.

I agree...sometimes people forget that recruiting is only a part of coaching.  The coaches have to develop this TALENT.  Right now, I don't know if the players are developing.  I see seniors making some of the same errors as the young players (holdings, false starts, etc).  

Also, are the coaches putting the players in position to make plays?  Are they creating the matchups to win the game?  If you think a Marshall FB program is going to win consistently just on TALENT...I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.  IMO  

I just don't believe you can win at Marshall based on TALENT alone (this isn't the BIG 10 or SEC).  Also, I dont think you NEED 24 NFL talents to win consistently at Marshall's level.  

However, in the defense of the entire coaching staff, Marshall doesn't pay their assistants enough to keep a cohesion unit for an extended period of time. Maybe we are getting what we paid for...

[GreenOne]

IMO most people defend the spread incorrectly. They defend it like they would the triple option, where assignment football, evryone staying at home and holding their ground is the way to beat it. It seems to me that is what they want you to do. Seems to me the way to beat it is to blitz, stunt, double team, spy, do whatever you can to create a mismatch that has you guys overwhelming theirs and not allowing the skill guy to make a play one-one-one.

Maybe vcoach will chime in on this thread....that boy knows his X's and O's.

I think you might be right to a point, I still believe that your LBs and DBs have to play some assignment football to make it work. I think South Florida did what you were talking about against WVU; they attacked the line of scrimmage and their LBs made sure the cutback lanes were taken care of. USF did a great job of not allowing Slaton to get on the corner and find a running lane. It helps when you have corners and safeties that can play man all night long.

Talking about Florida, I think Meyer has his dream QB in Tebow. A guy who can throw and run, who is 6' 4" and 235 lbs. and can take the pounding in the option game. I remember reading that Alex Smith (from Utah) said that when Meyer came out there, Smith thought that he was looking for someone like Tebow to run his system.