Topic: HZ: Herd Fans Should Embrace `New' C-USA

[_sturt_]

It's really easy...just keep your mind on the conversation and pay attention . It will sink in eventually 8)

Yeah, right... when pressed, you're as befuddled as I am.

[_sturt_]

I'll say again that I do agree that the three-pronged premise to perpetual inclusion into a major bowl makes sens, but that is like saying it makes sense that if I jump in the air, I will return to the ground.

Pretty much. Of course, I agree, and I have no clue why some people contest it. You can't argue with the three criteria... you might find if you dig hard that there is some 4th or even 5th criterion that could be added, but you can't subtract from the three listed because the facts support those too clearly.

No one is going to meet those requirements every year.  

True. To be the #1 non-AQ team every year has not been achieved historically, even by Boise. Given that history, to be the #1 Go5 team every year is too high an ambition to be realistic.

But what IS realistic is to be perennially in the conversation... in the competition. That has happened, and likely will happen, and we can either aspire to be one of those, or we can be satisfied to take the back seat and pick up the crumbs or whatever analogy you want to use for being considered the champion also-ran of the lower also-rans, the champion left-behind of the lower left-behinds... champion of the lower half of the lower half of FBS football... all of that, assuming that we continue to have higher regard than SBC (probably) and MAC (not at all a given).

Where I argue is for the most part that you do not have to be in the strongest conference to get there,

True. No argument. You don't have to be in "the strongest" conference. You have to be in "a strong" conference, relative to the strength of the other non-AQ/Go5 conferences.

we can reach many of our goals by simply winning.  We do not have to go to a major bowl to be happy...playing for conference championships, getting notice by the media for success, increasing attendance and donations by putting an exciting product on the field, etc.  Even within the "BCS" conferences, there are few who make it to the major bowls.  I can accept that we are not there based on the reality of our size, location (including economic factors of the area), etc.

This stuff just astounds me. Flabbergasts. Bewilders.

This is the essence of what I'm saying when I accuse you and others of succumbing to being a MAC fan in CUSA clothing.

Your ambitions are lowered as-if we have been among the Tulanes and UABs and Memphises... as-if we have found we just couldn't compete with the ECUs, the Tulsas and the Houstons.

Check the results. That's clearly not been the case.

All this talk about our size, location, private fundraising preventing us from being competitive is just that... talk.

The results show, to the contrary, that in spite of any negatives you or others want to throw out there, we've been competitive.

Btw, still waiting for one of the Snyder or Kayo critics who hold that woe-is-us position to now come forward and apologize... I mean, truly, these are things that Kayo talked about, and now it's somehow justified, whereas when he said the things he said, it was short-sighted. Well, either it was, indeed, short-sighted, or you have to take the position that we've enjoyed great, tremendous, exceptional success in light of all of these negatives. Yet again... can't have it BOTH ways. Choose a side.

I choose the side that says Kayo was short-sighted. I choose the side that says if we had had the fortune to get a George O'Leary on the sidelines, we'd be enjoying the same success that UCF has had.

You and others... by implication... disagree. Kayo was actually right, and we should be happy that Snyder and Doc have been able to grind out whatever wins they were able to grind out... and going forward, we should be thrilled that we can now play schools that we can actually compete with.

===
EDIT: HAVE MADE THIS POINT (above) ABOUT 3 OR 4 X NOW OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS... STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE, ANYONE TO CHALLENGE ME ON IT... HASN'T HAPPENED... NO, IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT THERE'S BEEN SILENCE, BUT IT'S DISAPPOINTING THAT NO ONE HAS YET HAD THE INTEGRITY TO SAY THEY NOW SEE THAT THEY OWE KAYO OR SNYDER AN APOLOGY
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I further feel that we are in a great position and would not trade it for an AAC membership.

We are in an inferior position. If you feel that's "great," again, see the MAC-like fan assertion.

But regardless... we are in the position we're in, and we have to deal with it... we have to find some sugar to go with the lemons, and seek to make lemonade.

The alliance proposal attempts to do just that... deal with it... acknowledging openly there's a prevalent obstacle between us and where we want to be, and constructing a way to make it so that, assuming we're successful, we do not hit a lowered ceiling (as so many seem to forget, happened in 1999, when circumstances relegated us to playing in the Motor City Bowl versus a middling BYU team)... that we get the laurels we earned, and that we do not take a backseat to the AAC and MWC champs, but are on that same tier.

[MarshallGrad]

If you feel that's "great," again, see the MAC-like fan assertion.

Sports, no matter the game no matter the level, is predominantly about feelings. Fans are driven by the affective, not the cognitive. The nature of being a fan is inherently subjective and not objective. Fans feel what they want to feel. How people feel about where we are will have no more or no less impact on our future than will an objective plan for an alliance. Neither will matter to where we are going. What was the last administration decision that was inspired by a forum debate? It is ok to feel great about where we are because not feeling great won't make it any better any faster.

[_sturt_]

Sports, no matter the game no matter the level, is predominantly about feelings. Fans are driven by the affective, not the cognitive. The nature of being a fan is inherently subjective and not objective. Fans feel what they want to feel.

Semantic weeds.

How people feel about where we are will have no more or no less impact on our future than will an objective plan for an alliance. Neither will matter to where we are going. What was the last administration decision that was inspired by a forum debate? It is ok to feel great about where we are because not feeling great won't make it any better any faster.

Again, zooming in to a single discussion... already addressed this.

Overall fatalistic perspective remains intact. No surprise there.

[MarshallGrad]

Semantic weeds.

Calling it semantics is ok. Words have meaning, and the words I used convey what I meant. Feeling good about the program, or at least the potential of the program, is a simple pleasure. It's legitimate. I get why you are not comfortable with that. Feeling good about where we are is fun. Who doesn't like fun.

[BHFIOHIO]

And maybe not feeling good as much as just playing the hand you're dealt without 12 months of whine. The fact is they didnt want us. Whether that is the fault of Kayo and Snyder or not doesnt matter. I dont believe Hamrick or Kopp or both together could have done anything about it. When I have proof otherwise, I might change my position. We dont offer the Florida beaches, Disneyworld, Beale Street, crawfish etouffe etc etc. The airport deal doesnt help but actually our situation on that issue compares to many BCS type venues. BUT we have been losers too....so just win and see what happens.

[_sturt_]

Unresponsive.

[herdman]

The Marshall administration has sold many of you a bill of goods and you have bought it.
To say we would not join the other conference is ludicrous and if people are getting that from.my folks it is even crazier.

One thing that separates ecu from Marshall is ecu ways wants to move forward. Their Armin was not to going to sit there and bs  fans about how great bring in Sunbelt Light would be.

The goal should be to get in the best conference we can which would be one that would be the eastern rival of the mountain west. Ecu fans would have a fit if their admin sat up there and bs about how great it was to be in a conference with teams with little or no history. As soon as Charlotte was added I knew ecu was going to leave.

[MarshallGrad]

The Marshall administration has sold many of you a bill of goods and you have bought it.
To say we would not join the other conference is ludicrous and if people are getting that from.my folks it is even crazier.

One thing that separates ecu from Marshall is ecu ways wants to move forward. Their Armin was not to going to sit there and bs  fans about how great bring in Sunbelt Light would be.

The goal should be to get in the best conference we can which would be one that would be the eastern rival of the mountain west. Ecu fans would have a fit if their admin sat up there and bs about how great it was to be in a conference with teams with little or no history. As soon as Charlotte was added I knew ecu was going to leave.

I hear many fans say they wish we had ended up in a "better" place than we are. When the shuffle was taking place, there were many posts expressing frustration and even anger at what appeared on the surface to be too little by the MU admin. No, I think most fans would have like "better" whatever that may have been, but are now settling into what is it we have. Barring some other fruitful alternative, hope and optimism seem ok.

Key ECU admin officials appear to have more drive and leadership than MU key administrators. Fans did not move us to the MAC nor move us to CUSA nor lead us to CUSA II. It is an admin thing. Yes, they may be trying to sell a bill of goods, but I don't see too many "fooled". Most just appear willing to accept, for now at least, what it is we have. You can have a fit, as you say (if you think that will influence the decision makers), or you you can hope for future administrators that are more like those at ECU and try to enjoy the only option we have for now.

I suppose an alternative, if you have inside influence, is to exercise that influence for better outcomes next time.

[BHFIOHIO]

The Marshall administration has sold many of you a bill of goods and you have bought it.
To say we would not join the other conference is ludicrous and if people are getting that from.my folks it is even crazier.

One thing that separates ecu from Marshall is ecu ways wants to move forward. Their Armin was not to going to sit there and bs  fans about how great bring in Sunbelt Light would be.

The goal should be to get in the best conference we can which would be one that would be the eastern rival of the mountain west. Ecu fans would have a fit if their admin sat up there and bs about how great it was to be in a conference with teams with little or no history. As soon as Charlotte was added I knew ecu was going to leave.

and its the same admin that has given us the new Rec Facility, Weight Traing Compplex
and IPF and Soccer Field and Pharmacy School, Engineering etc etc

[_sturt_]

I'm not down on the administration. Even beyond what is in their hearts, this is their careers/jobs we're talking about. Hamrick, especially, has multiple built-in motives to want to grow things, not to see them shrink. And as things have shrunk, they've had to do what was natural to do... put the best possible light on things, and hearkening back to the very start of this thread... get media participating in getting people to keep their collective heads up. Fortunately, there indeed are some positives to the situation to be accentuated.

So, mission, seemingly, accomplished.

But the grave danger is that they're having to espouse and even encourage this MAC mindset in the process... that winning the conference title of the 3rd or 4th best conference of the 5 in the bottom-half of FBS conferences is, now, good enough... propagandizing that, when all the stars and moons align just right, the winner of our new conference could be the major bowl participant...

I mean, what else are they going to do, right?...

Well, for those late to this conversation, the "what else they're going to do" is work on constructing a better structure, one where we better control our own destiny.

Commish Banowsky... part of the "they" in this picture... has said as much publicly... he hasn't been totally clear, but somehow he's imagining 8 to 9 teams in four geographic divisions competing within a Go5 playoff. How he's conceiving that in light of the current conferences' status? Unknown. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, that's as specific as he's gotten.

But thank God he's not sitting on his hands on this thing. Thank God he's an out-of-the-box thinker, not confined to conventions. I'm one of his staunchest critics for having jumped too soon (or, at least, being the face of the presidents who jumped too soon) to add these new schools with no pedigree, while his friend Craig Thompson's patience eventually was rewarded. But what's past is past. He's smart enough to recognize the situation for what it is, and to pursue something better.

We think alike, obviously.

[herdman]

and its the same admin that has given us the new Rec Facility, Weight Traing Compplex
and IPF and Soccer Field and Pharmacy School, Engineering etc etc

Those are good things to have as many other schools have them. I agree with you.
Reality is the new conference bus not that good but it is our home for now. We better hope that we are trying to move up.

[_sturt_]

And essentially what I'm advocating is... if you can't get invited to AAC (nor MWC)... recognize the resources at-hand, and your peers who are in a similar position, and look to collaborate on creating your own new environment where the best of the two can compete... take matters into your own hands and, within the boundaries of NCAA regs, create a tier that is competitively equivalent to the others.

[_sturt_]

You attempt to zoom in to this singular thread and/or this singular forum... and you're right to say that the decision-makers are highly, highly unlikely to access either, and to do the V8 thing, and say, "What a great idea! Let's jump on it!"

But then, in zooming-in, you are guilty in the assumption that that's what I'm after by pursuing the topic.

I'll give it another try... ever been part of a team at your place of employment that is charged with improving a process?... one of the first things you do is... what... brainstorm?... you hash out the problem at hand... brainstorm possible solutions with as little judgment as possible... then, you determine the criteria by which you'll judge the possible solutions... and after it's all on the table, you debate the options based on the criteria you set, and eventually come to some consensus recommendation for the higher-ups to consider.

This isn't that, but it's about as close to it as one can get.

At some point, you can be sure, I'll be carrying this torch to Banowsky and his staff... that is, unless his playoff idea somehow emerges in the meantime as politically viable, and we see that development reported. But preceding that, it seems prudent to test drive the whole thing, relying on those who actually ascend to an understanding of the concept to help identify the objections and troubleshoot it all... or, even better, to come up with other options that are just-as, if not better than the alliance proposal.

Clearly, the vast majority participating in this thread are not people who "ascend to an understanding of the concept," or even are intellectually honest enough to even admit to the problem. Like you, Grad, they oddly enough participate in a discussion that they claim is an exercise in futility from the git-go.

But then, there has been the occasional person here and on other forums who has been the exception. And it makes it worth wading through all this other BS to gain their thoughts and insights. And moreover, in the process of wading through... you never know how many lurkers never bother to participate in the actual discussion, but who become persuaded that this is a reasonable pursuit.

Done.

I'll let you know what response, if any, I get... whether positive or negative or otherwise.

[_sturt_]

... (a) particularly since it only benefits certain members of both conferences and relegates others to another, almost 1-AA level.  (b) I may not have the premise exactly right here...

(a) How's this for "bizarre"... on the one hand saying "just win and everything will take care of itself" in combination with "We should really be able to do well against these new schools"... but then on the other saying "we can't have this alliance thing because we might end up playing these "almost I-AA level schools!!!"

Cant have it both ways.

(b) True. And we all know it's easy to take shots when the point is to simply knock down with no intention to construct. No need to understand a premise when firing off scattershot in the general direction is sufficient to achieve one's purpose.

Couldn't help but notice that IM4 seemed to go silent at this point... darn... referencing "a," I was anxious to see which side he actually comes down on...

[IM4DHERD]

Didn't run away, just bored with it.  Like arguing about what color underwear Martians wear.  It's not going to happen.

[_sturt_]

Didn't run away, just bored with it.  Like arguing about what color underwear Martians wear.  It's not going to happen.

hehe... yeah... well, of course the martians' underwear could be multiple colors... unlike the conundrum you conveniently... but intelligently, I suppose, if the main interest was to save face... decided to dodge wherein you can't have it both ways.

[_sturt_]

(For anyone interested... letter to Banowsky attached.)

[_sturt_]

Link: http://www.herdzone.com/genrel/070113aaa.html

*bump*

Turns out, I was wrong.

I thought we were risking becoming the equivalent of the MAC (as this thread and so very many others attests).