Topic: Doc and Marshall

[Scottyo614]

Since every thread seems to turn into it, let’s let it all out. I also don’t know that constructively it ever goes anywhere, but let’s try. I’m genuinely curious to those who still support Doc and those who are ready to see him go.

For those who support him, why? What keeps you going?

For those who don’t, what would you like to see done after Doc?

Let’s keep it civil. At the end of the day we all want Marshall football to succeed. I don’t know that there is a right answer.

[Scottyo614]

I’ll start. Three years ago you would have seen me pounding the table to see him go on here. I think he’s gotten better assistant coaches and has built a foundation after the downfall year. I think Doc takes pride in being at Marshall. I also think he’s softened up to the community in the last couple years. He looks like the game isn’t above his head like in the past.

I genuinely like the stability. People talk about CUSA titles here and then it’s like well what comes with it? WKU went from two straight to horrible. FAU made a shock hire and got there, but they have leveled back. FIU same deal but did not make it. MTSU seems to have an 8-4 ceiling, but they, like us have that stable coach. For them it’s what is the ceiling under a new coach? I don’t see it better.

If you consider in the new conference, Doc and Brohm are the only two coaches in this CUSA that have two appearances does that change thoughts? I think after his next contract is up it may be time to usher in a new coach, however I don’t want us to end up like our fellow schools yo-yoing from first to last. If that means bowl game and 9-3 it is what it is. The system isn’t designed for us anyway.

[whf]

I like the cleanliness of the program.
I like the fact that he is so committed to the university.
I like his recruits, and his use of the prop system.
I like the fact he doesn't seem "lauding", down to earth *(this is also something I wish was a little like-able TBO)
I like the consistent improvement since several "poor" choices of assistants left, he had added some apparently good and committed teachers of the game, many who had great careers in their own right; they must like and trust him as he is fundamentally impactful in their careers.
I like the steady improvement since the debacle of 2016.

I wish he was a much more "marketable" coach, and did a lot more communicating and marketing himself. 

But I think if he doesn't win at least 9 games this year he should be replaced because I am not convinced he could dig us out of another bad year.

[herdorbust]

I can never enjoy Marshall football again until he is gone. Nothing personal because I don’t know the man. But I have zero confidence in him ever doing anything major. It’s wash and repeat every year. Don’t like his style of play, his unwillingness to engage the fans or anything else. I used to love Marshall football and Snyder started the downhill for me and Doc has finished me off. I have no problem if others are into it and maybe it’s just me. But it is not even close to being exciting as it used to be. Hopefully someday I can enjoy it again. In the meantime I’ll just stick with basketball.

[The E-Man]

I think every Herd fan would agree, we all want Doc to succeed!. I'd much rather see Doc leaving for another program than being let go because of not winning CUSA. With that being said, even Doc's staunches supporters like WHF has agreed, he should go if he doesn't win 9 games. One thing WHF didn't say, is for Doc to win a CUSA Championship as well. A lot of fans have gotten comfortable with winning 8 or 9 games and a bowl win. What happened to "our motto, We Play For Championships?"

[herdfan129]

I actually love Doc. I like everything about him except one thing....1 championship in 10 years. That is 100% unacceptable in this conference.

2 Division Championships and 1 conference championship (in 10 years) would be acceptable in the American.....that is NOT acceptable in this version of CUSA.

I also think Doc has improved but nothing else matters to me. He either wins the conference or its time for a change. I'm rooting for you Doc, I truly am.

[Scottyo614]

So the question is this, him and Jeff Brohm are the only two to go back to back. Heck they are the only two to go to two at all. Is this a case of us holding a higher standard? I understand we play for championships and are not.

The reason I ask is it feels like we are close to a G5 Nebraska. It was brought up in Solich but let’s bring it up here. Solich was winning well, but wasn’t going to win a title. Nebraska overthought there importance. Then Nebraska brought Polini in but he was too Donnan then fell apart cutting him. Are we waiting on that son to save us like Frost?

I hate to ask Sturt type questions. I think this just goes deeper

[banker]

I don't think Doc is the kind of coach that can lead his staff and players to levels they wouldn't otherwise reach.  It's the old "does he make everyone around him better", and I think that's a no.

Donnan and Pruett had that mojo, the ability to have players truly believe they should never, and would never, lose.  That attitude leaked out to the fans who also embraced that culture. It's why we are a bunch of cocky a-holes that believe we should win every game, that we are better than everyone else regardless of finances, facilities, conference, etc.

First Snyder, now Doc (and same with Marcum and now Hamrick), instead of embracing those expectations have worked to temper them and reset what we should expect here at Marshall. Is thier view more realistic?  Sure it is, but you never achieve great if you start the journey knowing you'll be satisfied with good.

I believe we need more dynamic leadership for the football program if we are going to get back to where we all want to be and get the fan base re-engaged. However, it comes with risks, most notably that Hamrick would be making the hire and his track record in that department isn't great over his career.  Also, he doesn't believe we should win every game, so I doubt he would go after an energetic coach with those expectations. It's why Doc is here.  He can recruit well enough, and hire well enough, to keep us consistently winning 8 or so games a year on average. He's safe.  Win enough to keep donors somewhat satisfied so they stay donors.

[Herdiowa]

I think Doc is a fine man and runs a clean program. I like that aspect. What I don’t like about the current program are multiple things.

1) I don’t like being kept in the dark about the program and it’s inner workings. I mean we are not Alabama for Pete’s sake. We are a small G5 program that needs our entire community backing our program. Why shut us out? 
2) I have very little confidence that even if our opponent has more talent that we have a shot to win. The lack of adjustments in game, or the game planning.  That is something we could count on with Bobby, Donnan, Chaump and Parrish.
3) I am not sure we have had a QB coach in years. In today’s game that is the most important position in the team yet we have no positional coach for the position. It makes no sense. More importantly it shows in our QBs game performance, lack of growth and mechanics.
4) Most importantly I think Doc is ok/complacent winning 8 games a year, never beating P5 opponents and rarely winning championships. To me that is no acceptable in this conference. If we were in the AAC then alright but not in this conference. He reminds me so much of Kirk Ferentz at Iowa it’s not funny. Clean program, mediocre program when they should dominate their division of the conference.
5) Lastly when he gets in a big game he chokes continually by playing not to lose. I absolutely hate that in a coach.

That’s it for now.

[MicDrass1]

Poor gameplans
Poor after halftime
Recruiting is avg.
Poor starter selection
Poor on the road
Poor record against teams above .500
Poor record ooc against avg P5s
Lack of defensive Int.
Same poor areas of starters each year
Poor strategy to win tight games (kicking in rain to win)
A lot more than this

So there are many coaches out there as good as Holliday.  Maybe they end up better considering our resources are many times better than when Pruett was here. 

[herd2win]

I am a MU fan first and foremost.  I also know we can do way worse than Doc.  He averages 8 wins a year and runs a clean program..that being said this is a critical year for Doc..just getting 8 wins will not keep him.  I have supported him but I also believe he must win at a minimum the East this year.

[whf]

I love the domicile discussion of this topic for a change, great thread.

[ThunderValley]

The reason I ask is it feels like we are close to a G5 Nebraska. It was brought up in Solich but let’s bring it up here. Solich was winning well, but wasn’t going to win a title. Nebraska overthought there importance. Then Nebraska brought Polini in but he was too Donnan then fell apart cutting him. Are we waiting on that son to save us like Frost?

We are not Nebraska, never have been, never will be.
We are Marshall, a very unique University that feel like our sports are part of our personal family.
We only want what is best for that family. That is why we are so passionate.
We hope our coaches can compete for conf. championships. Win lost records are nice but we have a hunger for winning our conference. In the past some coaches brought us those very things. We don’t care if they have never step foot on campus. They don’t have to be sons of Marshall we want someone that can bring back that excitement we all know as Marshall Football. This is what the Marshall football family needs to get back together again.

[mu79grad]

Over the past year, I have asked many Marshall fans if they are satisfied with Doc and the direction of the program.  Almost without fail the answer has been yes.  It dawned on me that us on Herdfans don't represent the average fan but mostly die-hard fans and expectations are higher.  However, I was still surprised at the results of my informal polling.

[puma]

I'll admit to being overly critical of him but I do like Doc.

He loves the program, absolutely bleeds green, and despite giving a lot of 2nd chances to guys who had problems elsewhere, has run a very clean program. I know a lot of people are critical of his dog house or whatever but he has my full faith to make those kind of disciplinary decisions. My favorite thing about him is his sense of history. It's what sets Marshall apart from most of the G-5 and especially the conference. He recognizes and builds the program around it. And as much as I complain about his conservative gameplans, I'll acknowledge that he follows what the analytics say to do 9/10 times, it's just ungodly boring and awful to watch.

And as much as I hate C-USA and being in this horrible, bush league, Facebook conference, I can't blame him for that. I think a lot of fans (myself included) let this frustration spill-over onto Doc, which isn't fair.

Now, my problems with Doc...

It's primarily the lack of results on the field. The Herd struggles immensely against any team with a winning record and every away game, regardless of competition. A Top-60 win has been an incredibly rare occurrence in his tenure (maybe 4 total?). His good records definitely beat the alternative but I can't help to view him as a paper tiger. Is an 8-win season really that much of an accomplishment when it includes 6 teams barely in the Top-100 and finishing #2 or #3 in the division? He had a good run from 2013 to 2015 but has stagnated since. Given the state of C-USA, I believe it's 100% reasonable to expect a title 2x a decade and win the East every 2 or 3 years.

He's up there with the like of Frank Solich or Rick Stockstill, in terms of coaches who are good enough to rarely have a truly bad season but at the same, just can't get over that hump to have a solid, multi-year run. They're kept around because known mediocrity+ is better than the potential of an East Carolina-style tailspin. Is it fair for fans to complain about consistent 8-and-4 seasons and maybe a once in a decade flash in a pan? If the Herd was in the AAC, MWC, or the old C-USA, I'd say "no". But in C-USA 3.0, we should do better.

For me to get back on the Doc bandwagon, he absolutely needs to win the division. I'll give brownie points for beating Cincinnati or winning the conference. He's not going anywhere and I just want something to show that we're going the right direction. Next year has an amazing out-of-conference schedule, I don't want to go into it expecting to be blown out at home in those games, followed by #2 in the East. But that's basically Doc football.

[bighat]

I neither like nor hate Doc but he has kept a consistent winning program.  I like his
steadiness.  I like him winning bowl games.  I am a Marshall University fan.  I have been a fan since the early sixties.  We did not win very many games in the sixties.  We changed coaches a lot then but we kept losing.  As I tell my grown children the grass is always greener on the other side.  I hate giving up a sure winning record each year with a few exceptions to the unsure results of a new coach.  Doc has made some hard decisions and remade himself and the team when he had too.

[coalherd]

If its nothing but being all about "championships" Herd fans can at least take some solace in this fact.  Solich has been the Bobcats HC for about 17 seasons; and Ohio hasn't won a MAC title since 1968, IIRC.  Hopefully, Doc will get his second CUSA title , or at least be in his 3rd Title game, this season!!

[Johns1124]

It's simple, We were successful in the MAC and we moved up (at the time) to CUSA in eight years. We have not been successful in CUSA
and Fourteen years later we are still here. The program is stagnant. We need to move on and try something else. AAC primarily has been taking big
media market schools. But I guarantee if we were successful in CUSA we would have been there by now.

[ed swain]

If we beat The Bearcats the Doc bandwagon will begin.If we lose the detractors will want him fired.After this game those who want him fired will be back on the bandwagon if we win  .We have very few fans who have supported the teams of the seventies and still root for the team and school.Most all of us want to win,but there are a few on the board that want us to lose so they can bitch about Doc and the team.They live to make the true fans as miserable as possible.I want to win ,but I do not know if the next coach will be better.Regardless of who the coach is I will still be for the Herd.

[Herd72]

I know he is a good man and tries to run a clean program. I know he loves Marshall.
I wish I could put my finger on why under his regime not only myself but many, many of my friends have lost interest in the football program. What is it he does or doesn’t do that makes many of us go from rapid fans who drive hours and hours to away games to casual fans who will watch on TV or listen on the radio if we have nothing else to do. I gave my four season tickets away two weeks ago after Boise and I had a hard time finding someone who wanted them. Like I said, the joy in watching the Herd is just not there anymore. I still love football but something is missing.

[Herdmeister]

I know he is a good man and tries to run a clean program. I know he loves Marshall.
I wish I could put my finger on why under his regime not only myself but many, many of my friends have lost interest in the football program. What is it he does or doesn’t do that makes many of us go from rapid fans who drive hours and hours to away games to casual fans who will watch on TV or listen on the radio if we have nothing else to do. I gave my four season tickets away two weeks ago after Boise and I had a hard time finding someone who wanted them. Like I said, the joy in watching the Herd is just not there anymore. I still love football but something is missing.

You have described me.... My feelings are the same. I went 10 years or more and didn't miss a game at home or away. This year I will most likely miss 3 home games and only going to Rice on the road.

[herdorbust]

You have described me.... My feelings are the same. I went 10 years or more and didn't miss a game at home or away. This year I will most likely miss 3 home games and only going to Rice on the road.

One word....Excitement!!!! It isn’t there.

[BHFIOHIO]

If you watch the Dunk media Ohio highlights and see no excitement then you just dont like Football. Youtube.

[svherd]

I'll admit to being overly critical of him but I do like Doc.

He loves the program, absolutely bleeds green, and despite giving a lot of 2nd chances to guys who had problems elsewhere, has run a very clean program. I know a lot of people are critical of his dog house or whatever but he has my full faith to make those kind of disciplinary decisions. My favorite thing about him is his sense of history. It's what sets Marshall apart from most of the G-5 and especially the conference. He recognizes and builds the program around it. And as much as I complain about his conservative gameplans, I'll acknowledge that he follows what the analytics say to do 9/10 times, it's just ungodly boring and awful to watch.

And as much as I hate C-USA and being in this horrible, bush league, Facebook conference, I can't blame him for that. I think a lot of fans (myself included) let this frustration spill-over onto Doc, which isn't fair.

Now, my problems with Doc...

It's primarily the lack of results on the field. The Herd struggles immensely against any team with a winning record and every away game, regardless of competition. A Top-60 win has been an incredibly rare occurrence in his tenure (maybe 4 total?). His good records definitely beat the alternative but I can't help to view him as a paper tiger. Is an 8-win season really that much of an accomplishment when it includes 6 teams barely in the Top-100 and finishing #2 or #3 in the division? He had a good run from 2013 to 2015 but has stagnated since. Given the state of C-USA, I believe it's 100% reasonable to expect a title 2x a decade and win the East every 2 or 3 years.

He's up there with the like of Frank Solich or Rick Stockstill, in terms of coaches who are good enough to rarely have a truly bad season but at the same, just can't get over that hump to have a solid, multi-year run. They're kept around because known mediocrity+ is better than the potential of an East Carolina-style tailspin. Is it fair for fans to complain about consistent 8-and-4 seasons and maybe a once in a decade flash in a pan? If the Herd was in the AAC, MWC, or the old C-USA, I'd say "no". But in C-USA 3.0, we should do better.

For me to get back on the Doc bandwagon, he absolutely needs to win the division. I'll give brownie points for beating Cincinnati or winning the conference. He's not going anywhere and I just want something to show that we're going the right direction. Next year has an amazing out-of-conference schedule, I don't want to go into it expecting to be blown out at home in those games, followed by #2 in the East. But that's basically Doc football.

We have to be honest with ourselves. Other than UCF and Boise, what G5 program has had the sustained success at a high level like they have? Boise more so than UCF, but looks like UCF is king of G5 now. Can we be a Boise or UCF, my realistic thought is no. To get there the fan base and school would have to give MANY more dollars and find a coach who exudes cocky confidence, has had success, and loves to score points. jmho.
I like Doc and always have, but to be honest, he won't make us a Boise or UCF. He runs a solid program and there is nothing wrong with that at all. I am disappointed we haven't won more league titles.

I also think some of our fans have a very inflated vision of where we stand in the pecking order of college football.

[herdorbust]

If you watch the Dunk media Ohio highlights and see no excitement then you just dont like Football. Youtube.

Nothing compared to what it once was. And I’m not the only one. I know people that would never miss a game that don’t go anymore. And they all say the same thing. Boring!!!! And you even see others on this board saying the same thing. If I find something exciting I go. Trust me, I want to feel that way again.