Topic: Toledo Game Thread

[herdfan129]

For the first time all year we got hammered on the boards. 48-37. On top of that we shot 17 free throws in the first half. We shot 0 in the second half and OT combined. That's because we settled for FAR too many jumpers.

That was the biggest difference in the gam imo.

[svherd]

This was B’balls equivalent of Rice. We’ll be fine, better early in the year than late.

[herdfan129]

It's basketball. I never expected us to go undefeated. Our kids still played hard and had a chance to win it at the end. I'm sure we will learn and grow from this. On to the next one.

[wasbarryb]

This was B’balls equivalent of Rice. We’ll be fine, better early in the year than late.

How can  you equate an OT loss to a 20 to nothin' drubbing we were never really in?  Seems like a bit of an over reaction to me.

[herdorbust]

This was maybe the most dissapointing loss to me since Danny has been here. I really thought this team was different but we went right back to playing undisciplined and selfish, out of control basketball with no discipline coming from the bench. How Danny can stand there and watch some of the most foolish decisions and bad shots and never show emotion is beyond me.
  How can Beyers half the time look like a highlight reel and the other half be the most undisciplined turnover machine on the floor?
  Has Jannson ever played actual defense without completely leaving his feet on every ball fake?
  This had to be West worst game in a Marshall uniform. I’ve never seen him get so abused and actual start putting his head down with so many bad plays.
  What happened to George?
  Goran is 7’ and he gets his shot blocked and gets the ball taken away from him inside. Will he ever strengthen up and get a mean streak?
  Marko does some good things but like Beyers and Williams can not keep his man from going to the basket.
  Taylor has got to bring a little more offense and start hitting some shots.
  I really have no problem with Obinna since he is a freshman and does some good things and tries to play team ball.
  Early is having trouble adjusting to the speed of the game imo.
  Kinsey has got to demand the ball more in this offense but he even had a horrible start to the game tonight.

  Overall this was just a very poor showing from a team that decided to not play team ball. They got hit in the mouth and went down 12 and panicked and started playing street ball. Imo Danny is going to have to start disciplining these guys when they make sloppy unforced turnovers or start playing individual ball. And IMO the next 3-4 recruits we sign had better be players.

[scope58]

I knew when it went overtime it was over.Two dumb bounce passes in the lane.In regulation, the ball should have been in Kinsey’s hands.Instead West at 5-10 tries to isolate and put up a shot way to damn early. With 5 seconds to go in the game, that’s when Kinsey should have been making a move to the basket. He can draw a foul better than West. This was a badly coached game.

[herdfan129]

Beyers just needs to accept the fact he is not a shot creator. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't know of anyone his size who is a shot creator. He just needs to be more disciplined in the shots he takes. When his feet are set and he is open he is deadly. He can also drive to the basket pretty good. When he gets stopped he needs to just stop and pass the ball as opposed to shooting a fade away or runner.

Marko is the same way, he is a really good shooter when his feet are set and he has time to shoot the ball. He does a much better job in his shot selection. 

This was also the first time our two best players faced adversity. West and Kinsey both got in to early foul trouble. The team will grow from all of this.

Obinna is growing up fast imo. He is looking more and more comfortable each game.

On the plus side we still played hard, didn't quit, and shot well from the foul line (when we got there.)

[coalherd]

Danny did mention in the post game that George was hit on the head.  Never returned, IIRC.  Perhaps held out as a precaution, maybe concussion protocol.  Steve Cotton and Hagley commented on radio broadcast that Toledo was physical and played up in the HERD's face, i.e., tight.  Couldn't make cuts, etc., on O.  Toledo, it appears, got physical with the HERD and we didn't react well, couldn't cope with it or handle it.  Does show up a little bit in the rebounding stats.

[coalherd]

Beyers just needs to accept the fact he is not a shot creator. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't know of anyone his size who is a shot creator. He just needs to be more disciplined in the shots he takes. When his feet are set and he is open he is deadly. He can also drive to the basket pretty good. When he gets stopped he needs to just stop and pass the ball as opposed to shooting a fade away or runner.

Marko is the same way, he is a really good shooter when his feet are set and he has time to shoot the ball. He does a much better job in his shot selection. 

This was also the first time our two best players faced adversity. West and Kinsey both got in to early foul trouble. The team will grow from all of this.

Obinna is growing up fast imo. He is looking more and more comfortable each game.

On the plus side we still played hard, didn't quit, and shot well from the foul line (when we got there.)

Comment on Marko emphasizes one of our problems.  Some of the kinds of players Danny brings in lack athleticism, lack "quickness", have little foot speed or quickness, etc.  Yeah, a guy may have good shooting mechanics, good form, etc., but if it takes him too long to get set in his shot, to get his feet right, and to execute his shooting mechanics, and in getting his shot off, then there is a BIG problem.  Just too many of these foreign players have big problems dealing with the speed, quickness, and athleticism of the American D1 college game, and we can clearly witness it even in CUSA caliber play!!

[coalherd]

This was maybe the most dissapointing loss to me since Danny has been here. I really thought this team was different but we went right back to playing undisciplined and selfish, out of control basketball with no discipline coming from the bench. How Danny can stand there and watch some of the most foolish decisions and bad shots and never show emotion is beyond me.
  How can Beyers half the time look like a highlight reel and the other half be the most undisciplined turnover machine on the floor?
  Has Jannson ever played actual defense without completely leaving his feet on every ball fake?
  This had to be West worst game in a Marshall uniform. I’ve never seen him get so abused and actual start putting his head down with so many bad plays.
  What happened to George?
  Goran is 7’ and he gets his shot blocked and gets the ball taken away from him inside. Will he ever strengthen up and get a mean streak?
  Marko does some good things but like Beyers and Williams can not keep his man from going to the basket.
  Taylor has got to bring a little more offense and start hitting some shots.
  I really have no problem with Obinna since he is a freshman and does some good things and tries to play team ball.
  Early is having trouble adjusting to the speed of the game imo.
  Kinsey has got to demand the ball more in this offense but he even had a horrible start to the game tonight.

  Overall this was just a very poor showing from a team that decided to not play team ball. They got hit in the mouth and went down 12 and panicked and started playing street ball. Imo Danny is going to have to start disciplining these guys when they make sloppy unforced turnovers or start playing individual ball. And IMO the next 3-4 recruits we sign had better be players.

And by "had better be players" I hope you mean that they better be "ballers", ready to play fluidly, steadily, and confidently with ABILITY from the "get go", and not have to struggle 2 or 3 seasons or so just "learning" our "system" and just how they fit in and function in said system.  Recruits like that smooth freshman guard, I believe he was, Toledo had out there tonight.  Several times tonight Herd play by play guy, Steve Cotton, complimented him, and was obviously impressed with his overall play!

[lexkyherdfan]

Ball should have gone to Kinsey. Next question.


I’m gonna need to go to confession because I’m still %^&*ing cussing

Exactly.  And if he is double teamed have someone ready for the lockout for a mid range jumper.  I love West’s play but he isn’t as successful driving like that due to size.  I want Kinsey with the ball and kick to west for a jumper if needed. I would feel more confident in that. 

[herdorbust]

Exactly.  And if he is double teamed have someone ready for the lockout for a mid range jumper.  I love West’s play but he isn’t as successful driving like that due to size.  I want Kinsey with the ball and kick to west for a jumper if needed. I would feel more confident in that.

It should have never come to that. We absolutely didn’t deserve to win the game. I’ve never been more disappointed in a game. I guess because I actually thought this team was different and was a lock down defensive team. But I saw the exact same defensive weaknesses we always had. Cant guard in the paint, can’t rebound, etc. unreal how uninspired and unfocused this team was. Along with no adjustments.

[Herdalum83]

I know people will laugh but this is a game that defensively we actually missed Iran.

[herdorbust]

I know people will laugh but this is a game that defensively we actually missed Iran.

I won’t laugh. He is the only guy inside that actually defends and moves his feet besides Obinna. But I’m not counting on IB because he is always going to either have weight issues or injury prone. Danny needs to start thinking about a zone, maybe even an aggressive matchup zone. He just doesn’t have the kids inside to play man defense. Just go back and watch film how easy it is for an opposing player to go around them straight to the basket. They never get down and move their feet cutting off the lane. The defense is just try and block the shot at the last second.

[GreenWhite]

I figured I needed to sleep on things before posting about this game. Many of the observations that I have read hit the nail on the head. What I saw was a Toledo team that played physical and wore us out. I believe Herdorbust has mentioned some guys need to get an attitude, mainly our bigs. What I saw last night was all of this team needs to have a mean streak. The up and down game is exciting, but I don't believe that is going to carry you far. There has to be some physical and mental toughness and it was not there for most of the game last night. Time to regroup and head on to the next opponent.

[lexkyherdfan]

I won’t laugh. He is the only guy inside that actually defends and moves his feet besides Obinna. But I’m not counting on IB because he is always going to either have weight issues or injury prone. Danny needs to start thinking about a zone, maybe even an aggressive matchup zone. He just doesn’t have the kids inside to play man defense. Just go back and watch film how easy it is for an opposing player to go around them straight to the basket. They never get down and move their feet cutting off the lane. The defense is just try and block the shot at the last second.

I agree that IB would have helped.  it just stinks he has had injuries so much.  This is why I question why our bigs are not getting bigger.  We can't shot the three consistently enough.  The Fun and Gun we used to have in the past isn't there.  We play better defense most of the time but our size inside still hurts us and what year is this???  it seems about ever other mid-major has somebody with some mass that can easily push us around.  Why we don't spend more time in the weight room amazes me.  This game was frustrating to watch.

[svherd]

How can  you equate an OT loss to a 20 to nothin' drubbing we were never really in?  Seems like a bit of an over reaction to me.

Its the same mindset, had a game we should have won but lost. Its not about the score, its an L. That's all that matters. We can learn from it and move on. The world is not ending.

[MUonium]

could be wrong, but what stood out to me was that UT moved really well, constant and consistently, moved their feet and the ball.  quicker from standstill, from perimeter on O, creators of opportunity.  they're not the biggest or tallest team, no super athletes, no super shooters, just dogged in their team approach. i felt like we were always playing from behind, even when leading on the scoreboard.

some critical areas that we'd been pretty good at prior to this game:

questionable *shot selection throughout.  as pointed out, how can you not get to the foul line for an entire half?  see *

rebounds:  although it's always good when your guards are contributing on the boards, staying busy and being where they need to be.  but should they be constantly be leading or at the top of that category even though we understand 'position-less BB', at least on the offensive end?

points off turnovers:  simple outhustled, our transition game faltered.  too many forced passes.

points in the paint and 2nd chance points: at least, give credit to Jannson for 5 blocked and altering more shots and 13 pts in 29 minutes.

bench points/any other significant contribution: really needed George and others even though we were close to having 6 score in double figures.

give credit to UT.  a big part of the reason we didn't move, we didn't move the ball.  we didn't create.

i think this one is on the coaches more than individual players.  on to the next one (maybe Sunday replacement game?), hopefully having learned a thing or two.

[sardistim]

could be wrong, but what stood out to me was that UT moved really well, constant and consistently, moved their feet and the ball.  quicker from standstill, from perimeter on O, creators of opportunity.  they're not the biggest or tallest team, no super athletes, no super shooters, just dogged in their team approach. i felt like we were always playing from behind, even when leading on the scoreboard.

some critical areas that we'd been pretty good at prior to this game:

questionable *shot selection throughout.  as pointed out, how can you not get to the foul line for an entire half?  see *

rebounds:  although it's always good when your guards are contributing on the boards, staying busy and being where they need to be.  but should they be constantly be leading or at the top of that category even though we understand 'position-less BB', at least on the offensive end?

points off turnovers:  simple outhustled, our transition game faltered.  too many forced passes.

points in the paint and 2nd chance points: at least, give credit to Jannson for 5 blocked and altering more shots and 13 pts in 29 minutes.

bench points/any other significant contribution: really needed George and others even though we were close to having 6 score in double figures.

give credit to UT.  a big part of the reason we didn't move, we didn't move the ball.  we didn't create.

i think this one is on the coaches more than individual players.  on to the next one (maybe Sunday replacement game?), hopefully having learned a thing or two.

This is the first game this year in which we looked like last year's team.  I'll second the points above and briefly add these:

1) Shot selection--for the first time this year 50% of our shots were from 3 pt line.  Our 3 pt shooting wasn't bad, but it wasn't good either.  The bigger problem is that we didn't create fouls by driving for closer shots.  We had zero FTs in the 2nd half, which is partly due to the increased number of 3 pt shots instead of making UT's D work harder.

2) Rebounding--for the first time this year we were out rebounded & badly.  Several times they got offensive boards simply because we didn't block out--even at the foul line.  Taylor was the top rebounder for the 2nd straight game.  You want to know why a 6'3" guard is rebounding well?  He BLOCKS OUT; instead of just standing near the basket.  Twice, I saw him make textbook moves to block out his man once the rebound was in the air.  Danny needs to have Taylor teach our big men how it's done.

Finally, Toledo's guards had quicker first steps than Taylor and even West could guard; they broke down our defense countless times.  We can survive either West or Kinsey not having a good game; but we can't survive BOTH having bad games.  Neither had a good first half, Kinsey picked it up in the second half, but the die was cast.

Disappointing loss.  But just don't waste it, Herd.  Learn from this game.  Learn its lessons well.  Cause if you don't, you're going to see every opponent try to copy what Toledo did.

[ThunderingHerdFan]

Stats are strange so hear me out. The 0 FT’s in the second half and OT came on more 2-pt. shot attempts in the first half than the second half. But you have to consider that shooting fouls don’t count as FGA, so that skews the numbers a bit.

I felt Toledo was allowed to be physical and we got several what appeared to be touch fouls, but it’s hard to see when there are no floor level camera angles due to COVID.  And while I didn’t like the officiating as a whole, I do not believe it cost Marshall the game. It looked like Marshall in the middle of last season. When the team was in-between the sluggish start and stronger finish.

I think the play where George got elbowed in the head should have been reviewed. I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but it was a blow square to the head. That alone should warrant a second look just to be sure. George didn’t play after that, either.

But I’m not “worried” by this game. There are some things to be concerned about but we will see how they bounce back next time out. If they play well 4 out of 5 games, it will still be a really fun season. Let’s see the response from a veteran team.

[98HerdAlum]

We may want to pump the brakes just a bit.  Marshall didn't play well last night.  It happens.  Anyone that was expecting 25-0 was in serious need of a come to Jesus moment anyways.  Running the table in any college sport is really difficult but doing so in college basketball is nearly impossible.  This team is still good and they still have every team goal on the table for them.  I feel pretty confident that Coach D'Antoni has never mentioned to the guys that he expected to win every game this season.  Getting these guys ready for Conference play is the goal right now.  There are much bigger fish to fry than beating Toledo in December.

[herdorbust]

Stats are strange so hear me out. The 0 FT’s in the second half and OT came on more 2-pt. shot attempts in the first half than the second half. But you have to consider that shooting fouls don’t count as FGA, so that skews the numbers a bit.

I felt Toledo was allowed to be physical and we got several what appeared to be touch fouls, but it’s hard to see when there are no floor level camera angles due to COVID.  And while I didn’t like the officiating as a whole, I do not believe it cost Marshall the game. It looked like Marshall in the middle of last season. When the team was in-between the sluggish start and stronger finish.

I think the play where George got elbowed in the head should have been reviewed. I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but it was a blow square to the head. That alone should warrant a second look just to be sure. George didn’t play after that, either.

But I’m not “worried” by this game. There are some things to be concerned about but we will see how they bounce back next time out. If they play well 4 out of 5 games, it will still be a really fun season. Let’s see the response from a veteran team.

I’m actually very worried about this game. It shows that nothing has changed when guards can penetrate against our D. Then once they get in there the bigs can’t guard or leave their feet for a dish and dunk. Once our D gets broke down it falls completely apart. The reason I’m bummed about this game is we can play with average or slower teams. But against really good teams or quick guard teams, we don’t match up at all. Danny needs to go after more athletes that can and will defend.

[coalherd]

We may want to pump the brakes just a bit.  Marshall didn't play well last night.  It happens.  Anyone that was expecting 25-0 was in serious need of a come to Jesus moment anyways.  Running the table in any college sport is really difficult but doing so in college basketball is nearly impossible.  This team is still good and they still have every team goal on the table for them.  I feel pretty confident that Coach D'Antoni has never mentioned to the guys that he expected to win every game this season.  Getting these guys ready for Conference play is the goal right now.  There are much bigger fish to fry than beating Toledo in December.

Toledo came to Huntington with a 4-3 record, not exactly setting the world on fire.  Close losses to Bradley and Xavier, on the road, and a 20 point loss at Michigan.  Wins over Oakland, Eastern Mich., Cleveland State and Missouri-Kansas City, not exactly murderers row!  Herd just blew a win against a very beatable opponent, in the CAM at that!

[Herd72]

I feel like a lot of our offensive problems would be solved if we had a slasher who drove hard to the basket and created. That would open up a lot of mid range shots for us when the defense had to respect that. Kinsey can definitely do that but does not seem to be inclined to drive hard though the defense.

[98HerdAlum]

I think exactly the opposite regarding penetration. When we had a pure shooter in the corner, like Austin Loop, the defense was not able to leave him. Lanes were created by using good spacing. Right now, we have guys in the corner that are decent shooters but they aren’t knock down guys like Loop was. IMO, that’s what this team is missing.