Topic: What we know after Indiana

[GreenWhite]

Good analysis about the foot work.

[2xBison]

maybe we should retitle this thread what we don't know after Indiana.

I didn't get to watch after the football game. But I read this thread then went to the herdzone stat line.

It shows AT and TK with 4 turnovers each, George with 1, and Obinna with 3 for the game total of 12 turnovers. Byers shows 0 turnovers. Misinformation on the board?  get out. 

The stats show Byers and Obinna tied for third most minutes on the floor after TK and AT so the coaching staff seems pleased with play because they don't hesitate to let Byers see the pine when he makes mistakes and turns ball over....real turnovers that count not fictional ones.

Looks like (as expected) the big three for the night were Obinna, AT and TK.  It would be nice to get some three point shooting from either TK or Obinna, but especially TK.

Byers scored 9 points plus 2 assists accounting for 13 points last night.  He was the fourth most productive offensive player behind the big 3 mentioned above.  He and Early were second behind AT in three point percentage at 33%, and Byers was third (behind AT and Oak) in FG percentage.    Byers was one of four players with a steal.  Other than that he needs to rebound more and shoot more three pointers.  Looks like another solid stat line for Byers and I'm sure his defense was lacking without watching the game.

As someone said earlier this week, Byers earned his criticism.  Sure, and he's made plenty of mistakes and is a different kind of player that makes some of his mistakes just stand out.  But, it's a shame that so many fans (not just the writer of this post) are negative on Byers no matter what he does or doesn't do.  Objectively looking at stats it looks like he earned the 32 minutes and had his second consecutive solid stat line.

[MidlandKnight]

I wasn't disappointed at all, thought the team gave great effort, but here are a few things of note:

1. Goran did try to muscle up against IU's All American, but he was just too slow. If he plays like that against most centers that he will face... he will be okay.
2. Beyers defense is just flat awful and hurts the team more than his bad decision on the Offensive end.
3. David Early NEEDS to play more. Not sure if Danny has promised TK more time handling the ball and if so, that is okay, put Early at the 3 spot.
4. While AT played better, he still is not where he needs to be....
5. Where was Double teaming? I get Danny's Logic, but I really don't believe he had any intent of double teaming the kid going into the game.
6. Once again we can't hit an open 3, but the opposing team seems to have no problem. For a coaching staff that is supposed to be offensive minded this is perplexing to me.

I know all of the above seems negative, but the good thing is every player on the floor hustled and tried, I thought Tousaint and Mckey gave us some good minutes, plus "if" Oak develops an outside shot he is going to be one of the best we have ever seen here.

[MidlandKnight]

maybe we should retitle this thread what we don't know after Indiana.

I didn't get to watch after the football game. But I read this thread then went to the herdzone stat line.

It shows AT and TK with 4 turnovers each, George with 1, and Obinna with 3 for the game total of 12 turnovers. Byers shows 0 turnovers. Misinformation on the board?  get out. 

The stats show Byers and Obinna tied for third most minutes on the floor after TK and AT so the coaching staff seems pleased with play because they don't hesitate to let Byers see the pine when he makes mistakes and turns ball over....real turnovers that count not fictional ones.

Looks like (as expected) the big three for the night were Obinna, AT and TK.  It would be nice to get some three point shooting from either TK or Obinna, but especially TK.

Byers scored 9 points plus 2 assists accounting for 13 points last night.  He was the fourth most productive offensive player behind the big 3 mentioned above.  He and Early were second behind AT in three point percentage at 33%, and Byers was third (behind AT and Oak) in FG percentage.    Byers was one of four players with a steal.  Other than that he needs to rebound more and shoot more three pointers.  Looks like another solid stat line for Byers and I'm sure his defense was lacking without watching the game.

As someone said earlier this week, Byers earned his criticism.  Sure, and he's made plenty of mistakes and is a different kind of player that makes some of his mistakes just stand out.  But, it's a shame that so many fans (not just the writer of this post) are negative on Byers no matter what he does or doesn't do.  Objectively looking at stats it looks like he earned the 32 minutes and had his second consecutive solid stat line.

I think that is a good point about Beyers, even I was guilty of pointing out Beyers bad decisions in my previous post. In reality, against IU not only did Beyers have some questionable shots, but so did TK. AT at some times just did not seem to be into the game, of course it may had to do with guys he was going against as he was pretty good.

[GreenWhite]

He just seems to make those mistakes at crucial times. Andy and Tavion do turn the ball over too much. One thing the stat line doesn't show is when those turnovers take place. Tavion dribbled right into a triple team and tried to shoot. Beyers, when we were coming back a little, made one of those what in the world moves and missed an off-balance fade away shot. Obinna played hard. Darius disappeared. Kinsey tried too much. Andy got his feet set on a few threes and made a couple. More will go down as the season progresses if he continues to do that. I do think the team panicked when Indiana started a run. DD waited until it was an 11-0 run before he called timeout. We came back, scored four straight points, and coach Woodson of Indiana called a timeout. There were some good things that happened in this game. We have the talent and athleticism. I expected a blowout. Instead, I got an entertaining game. Coach just needs to clean up a few things and this team will be really good.

[2xBison]

I think that is a good point about Beyers, even I was guilty of pointing out Beyers bad decisions in my previous post. In reality, against IU not only did Beyers have some questionable shots, but so did TK. AT at some times just did not seem to be into the game, of course it may had to do with guys he was going against as he was pretty good.

as long as DD has been here and watching numerous players shoot questionable shots with regularity.......I find it hard to even single out any one player taking questionable shots.  If we are going there, we need to go to the top and question DD and his philosophy.

[MidlandKnight]

as long as DD has been here and watching numerous players shoot questionable shots with regularity.......I find it hard to even single out any one player taking questionable shots.  If we are going there, we need to go to the top and question DD and his philosophy.

Don't disagree with you on that either.

[GreenWhite]

Don't disagree with you on that either.

I also agree. I thought the philosophy was take the first good shot, not just shoot. I did see at the last couple of home games Danny getting on Beyers for not taking the open three and trying to drive and make all those crazy moves just to put up a bad shot or turn it over. Someone mentioned in the past Beyers needs to be like Loop. Set up outside and be ready to get a pass to take an open three.

I will say that even Jon Elmore made selfish plays and cost us some games. CJ Burks made those type of plays. Peneva made those types of plays. It just seems Beyers makes more of them than any of those combined. Last night, Beyers took some open threes that I thought were good shots. Twice they came up short. One barely grazed the rim. I still thought they were good shots. He just needs to quit trying to do all those herky jerky moves and shoot the ball. On offense, that is my biggest complaint on Beyers. Defense is another story.

[2xBison]

I also agree. I thought the philosophy was take the first good shot, not just shoot. I did see at the last couple of home games Danny getting on Beyers for not taking the open three and trying to drive and make all those crazy moves just to put up a bad shot or turn it over. Someone mentioned in the past Beyers needs to be like Loop. Set up outside and be ready to get a pass to take an open three.

I will say that even Jon Elmore made selfish plays and cost us some games. CJ Burks made those type of plays. Peneva made those types of plays. It just seems Beyers makes more of them than any of those combined. Last night, Beyers took some open threes that I thought were good shots. Twice they came up short. One barely grazed the rim. I still thought they were good shots. He just needs to quit trying to do all those herky jerky moves and shoot the ball. On offense, that is my biggest complaint on Beyers. Defense is another story.

and nevertheless....shot 44% from the field which was good enough for third on the team last night.  this is kind of my point, we are discussing his misses and no one else's because at 6 9 handling ball, shooting his mistakes and misses just seem to stand out more than others.  Couple that with a history of some mistakes and now the fans are saying the same thing every game no matter if the results or objective stats support it. 

heck, I wouldn't mind if some others on the team stepped up and took his minutes.  That would be better for program if an underclassman takes his minutes and it would solve the problem of me having to listen to people drone on in the crowd about Byers with each miss or pass or turnover or if an opponent scores and he is anywhere in the vicinity.

[GreenWhite]

and nevertheless....shot 44% from the field which was good enough for third on the team last night.  this is kind of my point, we are discussing his misses and no one else's because at 6 9 handling ball, shooting his mistakes and misses just seem to stand out more than others.  Couple that with a history of some mistakes and now the fans are saying the same thing every game no matter if the results or objective stats support it. 

heck, I wouldn't mind if some others on the team stepped up and took his minutes.  That would be better for program if an underclassman takes his minutes and it would solve the problem of me having to listen to people drone on in the crowd about Byers with each miss or pass or turnover or if an opponent scores and he is anywhere in the vicinity.

I understand what you are saying and I am just as guilty as the next one. Sometimes, stats do not tell the whole story. He shot 44% from the field. That is not really that bad, considering he is a three-point shooter and I imagine most of his misses were from three. It's just some of the other plays he makes that leave you scratching your head. As I mentioned in another post, Tavion made a mistake at a crucial time by trying to take on a triple team and shoot the ball. That was a huge mistake and ended up in a turnover. Tavion and Andy both need to clean up their turnovers and Beyers needs to play smarter and within his abilities. The only two people on the bench I trust to take minutes from Beyers is Obinna and Toussant. Obinna is taking Goran's minutes right now. Toussant, right now, fouls too much. He is just a freshman. I would add Marko and Early but they do not have the height that Beyers has.

[2xBison]

I don?t disagree that Byers needs to play smarter and more consistent.  I?m sure he will have more head scratching plays, I?m just saying let?s criticize when he earns it and not continuously and not hanging on each individual miss or mistake. 


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[GreenWhite]

I don?t disagree that Byers needs to play smarter and more consistent.  I?m sure he will have more head scratching plays, I?m just saying let?s criticize when he earns it and not continuously and not hanging on each individual miss or mistake. 


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I see your point. Beyers does take a lot of heat and much has as much to do with the past as the present. D'Antoni after one game mentioned Tavion turning the ball over too much. Andy has also. I think I need to look at everything before I make assessments. Since I will not be watching the game Wednesday, I will have to rely on what Steve Cotton describes during the game. But I will be at the Duquesne game next Saturday (I believe that is the next home game).

[herdfan129]

In terms of our fan base....Beyers is the most under rated player on our team.

[Herdmeister]

as long as DD has been here and watching numerous players shoot questionable shots with regularity.......I find it hard to even single out any one player taking questionable shots.  If we are going there, we need to go to the top and question DD and his philosophy.

You can ask that question on his radio show tonight at 7pm. Text the question to Steve @herdcotton. Better yet, stop in Calamity J tonight, have dinner with us and enjoy discussing Herd hoops with us all

[Rockin Herd Fan]

Beyers was really good in the first half, but he along with a few other guys started to panic in the second half and threw up some bad shots.  He is playing much better than he did to start the season.  But with Beyers you are going to get those wild crazy plays that leave you dumbfounded, but he is not the reason we lost to Indiana. 

[Toro Toro Taxi]

Beyers is a good player , but , its his bonehead decisions at times that overrides his good decisions . He doesnt just miss a drive to the basket , he spins around , throws up a one handed behind the back hook shot , hoping to make espn later that night , miss that would make the Globetrotters proud. I think Beyers helps the Herd when hes under control but that seems to change from minute to minute , ya never know what youre going to get . Fans know all this so it makes him an easy target .

[goherd24]

maybe we should retitle this thread what we don't know after Indiana.

I didn't get to watch after the football game. But I read this thread then went to the herdzone stat line.

It shows AT and TK with 4 turnovers each, George with 1, and Obinna with 3 for the game total of 12 turnovers. Byers shows 0 turnovers. Misinformation on the board?  get out. 

The stats show Byers and Obinna tied for third most minutes on the floor after TK and AT so the coaching staff seems pleased with play because they don't hesitate to let Byers see the pine when he makes mistakes and turns ball over....real turnovers that count not fictional ones.

Looks like (as expected) the big three for the night were Obinna, AT and TK.  It would be nice to get some three point shooting from either TK or Obinna, but especially TK.

Byers scored 9 points plus 2 assists accounting for 13 points last night.  He was the fourth most productive offensive player behind the big 3 mentioned above.  He and Early were second behind AT in three point percentage at 33%, and Byers was third (behind AT and Oak) in FG percentage.    Byers was one of four players with a steal.  Other than that he needs to rebound more and shoot more three pointers.  Looks like another solid stat line for Byers and I'm sure his defense was lacking without watching the game.

As someone said earlier this week, Byers earned his criticism.  Sure, and he's made plenty of mistakes and is a different kind of player that makes some of his mistakes just stand out.  But, it's a shame that so many fans (not just the writer of this post) are negative on Byers no matter what he does or doesn't do.  Objectively looking at stats it looks like he earned the 32 minutes and had his second consecutive solid stat line.

You didn't watch that the game, that's the problem. You missed the silly and mostly quick shots he took in transition, spinning and fading away, out of control, and other wise in crucial possessions that led to Indiana scoring on the other end.

[2xBison]

Exactly.  I also missed the 5 turnovers you mentioned and noticed despite the wild shots was one of our top four producers offensively.


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[goherd24]

Exactly.  I also missed the 5 turnovers you mentioned and noticed despite the wild shots was one of our top four producers offensively.


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Those are the turnovers. That's my point. Read between the lines. When he gives indiana 8 points off those circus shots, plus the awful D, his 9 points become moot.

[2xBison]

Those are the turnovers. That's my point. Read between the lines. When he gives indiana 8 points off those circus shots, plus the awful D, his 9 points become moot.

oh I get that and I feel like that proves my point about the negative focus on Byers.  I say that agreeing that he has deserved plenty of criticism for head scratching plays and probably will again.  But, if we have a team and offensive philosophy of long shots early in the clock, long shots with no one under basket or heck maybe not on that end of the floor other than shooter, alley oop passes that may or may not connect and we are going to count Byers misses and the other teams points and equate to turnovers?  we probably should get busy counting on the entire team. 

I may as well shut up.  You are in line with the majority of the fan base on Byers and I'm not on this one.  I just think it's gotten to the point people don't like him or maybe it's better said don't like his game, or they want to be correct about him so he is scrutinized over any mistake and now even missed shots - even with a solid stat line.  I know he's not strong defensively but I'm not sure we have but about three players that are strong.  I hope others start shooting the three better before we bench him because we need the spacing.

[Herdiowa]

Here is the deal with Beyers.  He is probably the 2nd best athlete on the team behind Kinsey.  You just don?t see guys his size that can move or jump the way he does.  Also if his feet are set he may be our best shooter.  His only issue is playing within himself and understanding that is good enough. No need to be a 6?9? point guard.

[MUonium]

i agree with those who said
just a couple more 3s
a couple more rebounds
did we really have only two players get to the FT line??
a little bit of noise from George and Early
just elimination of a few mistakes and we could have been up big to start the 2nd half and better prepared/more confident for Indiana's adjustments
doubling up on Davis a bit sooner to force outside shots (which they did hit but nonetheless you have to make them beat you)

its tough to play a pretty good game, with energy and purpose but to then see these Indiana stats at the end of the game: 57.6 FG %, 53.3 3pt FG% and 10 more rebounds than us
I think Indiana's 1-3s werent anything special but we will  take a peek at where they go from here
our outside shooting has to become a threat at some point to make us multi-dimensional and a team that will be really tough to beat
overall, our D isn't bad, is consistently a little better than many recent years

[BoydCountyHerdFan]

Love him or hate him, Beyers is the only viable option for The Herd.  Taylor, Kinsey, George, Obinna, Beyers, Goran, Marko and Early seem to be the only guys Dan has confidence in.  This remarkable freshman class that was supposed to take the world by storm is proving itself to be full of guys that are not ready to play impactful minutes this year.  Not saying they won't be good in the future but they are not ready now.  Toussaint is by far the most college ready of all the freshmen. I expect the same thing from next years class too.  I will be a couple of years in the weight room before these guys can help out.

[Refiners]

Byers may be an asset on the offensive end when and if he plays under control, but he is a liability on the defensive end of the floor. It seems that he is all consumed with an occasional spectacular play instead of being a steady contributor. He throws up long range 3s when he can take a couple steps closer and still have an open 3. The crazy tosses toward the basket that have no chance of going in are beyond ridiculous. He seems less under control than a freshman.

[2xBison]

Byers may be an asset on the offensive end when and if he plays under control, but he is a liability on the defensive end of the floor. It seems that he is all consumed with an occasional spectacular play instead of being a steady contributor. He throws up long range 3s when he can take a couple steps closer and still have an open 3. The crazy tosses toward the basket that have no chance of going in are beyond ridiculous. He seems less under control than a freshman.

We all agree about defense.

Let's look at the season stats..........facts don't care about feelings.

https://herdzone.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2021-22

"those long range threes".......well he's 3rd on the team in 3-pt percentage for season at 38% (good) with only the two Euros being higher than him.  Marko may stay higher.  Goran...I look for it to drop along with his minutes.  Are we expecting him to step in closer and get the percentage up to 45%? 50%? 

"those crazy no chance tosses"......well he's 5th on the team in FG % at 43%.  The first three are primarily interior scorers (Toussaint, Obinna, George) with only Marko having a slightly higher FG % at 44%.

other notes.
5th on team in minutes played
5th on team in scoring
3rd on team in assists
3rd on team in block shots
6th on team in steals
3rd in turnovers behind the two guards (expected) and only two TOs ahead of Obinna for season and I've never heard a comment about turnovers related to him.  I know, I get it, it's from his history.
3rd on fouls.

again....no doubt he needs to be smarter and more consistent.  take care of the ball and be a better defender.  but objectively, he's  not that bad right now.  I am probably just guarantying he has a 6 turnover game in Akron lol. 

I'm more concerned about our starting guards shooting 17% and 23% from three.  And if we bench Byers....I guess Marko gets more minutes as we need shooters.  Bench him for Toussaint or another and we may get marginally better defensively but I'm guessing our offense (even without Byers mistakes) gets really gummed up.