Topic: Marshall's "Spread" Offense?

[Johnnyherd]

There has been talk that now that A J and E S had been in the system for 2 years, they'll run it better.  So here is the million dollar question, what system?

Everyone said that we are a spread team under Bill Legg, and that Brian Anderson limited our ability to run the offense effectively.  Some guys said Legg uses that "Texas Air Raid" spread, but that's not true we don't even begin to look like Texas Tech and we didn't pass that much with a 5th year senior QB. 

We certainly aren't going to run a Pat White type running game spread, that attacks with the QB running the ball.

We don't seem to use tempo, like a spread teams does.  We just line up and take our time.  The QB rarely if ever keeps the ball and the times he does, he gets a few yards at best. 

We basically seem to operate an offense that looks like a spread in terms of formation, but doesn't specialize in attacking a defense in any certain way.  We use a very predictable and run/pass balanced offense that works just like a conventional offense and doesn't create many problems for our opponents to defend.   

For those of you that think that QB situation will determine what type of season we will have, I should point out that we were one of the worst teams in the country at running the football, getting 1st downs and total yards.  No need to debate this, but Brian Anderson was a decent QB last year.  We only rushed for 7 touchdowns in 12 games, OK.  So what do you think our record would have been if we would have rushed for 25 TD's?  We would have probably won the conference.

Legg needs to get things figured out. We need to get an effective running game developed, first and foremost, that's the key to our season. 

[wvmafia]

I think, and I stress think, that we are going to run an up tempo style, running QB spread when our personnel matches that type of offense.  I think we will see that some this year and by next year, be 100% transitioned to it.  That's just the impression I've gotten when speaking to a couple of coaches.  I think the Herd spread will be more like the Urban Myer offense than the Rich Rod spread.

I heard "lack of personnel at the key positions and we need more speed" used several times last season by people close to the team.  Don't know if that was a "talking point" or fact.  But that was the "excuse" for why we had no installed offense that was able to be the basis series after series.   

[The Right Stuff]

I agree with everything you have said Johnnyherd.  Last year I saw no true idenity on offense.  Yes we must develop a run game to be successful.  Even when we were throwing it all over the place with Pruett and Donnan we still were close to 50/50 with run and pass.  Even SMU with Jones' offense they had an effective running game.

TRS
MU 71

[BHFIOHIO]

one of the objects of a spread is to spread the D to make running the ball easier.

[Herdmeister]

I agree with everything you have said Johnnyherd.  Last year I saw no true idenity on offense.  Yes we must develop a run game to be successful.  Even when we were throwing it all over the place with Pruett and Donnan we still were close to 50/50 with run and pass.  Even SMU with Jones' offense they had an effective running game.

TRS
MU 71

I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but I know I was at SMU game last year and they had a running back that absolutely ate our lunch. We went in thinking pass and holy cow!

[IM4DHERD]

"Spread" simply means no huddle, 4 wide, and QB in the shotgun most of the time.  Can be running-oriented or passing oriented.  Looks here like we'll be doing some spread option, which makes sense given Doc's pedigree:

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/archive/x678503297/g276258000000000000a78e655f27262ce8be272069e3dfd14285aed9cb.jpg

From Wikipedia:

The other extreme version is the spread option, consisting of the slot receiver and tail back as well as a speedy quarterback, used by the Auburn Tigers under offensive coordinator Gus Malzahn, Rich Rodriguez at West Virginia and also Michigan before his firing, Urban Meyer at Utah and Florida, Chip Kelly at Oregon, and Jerry Moore at Appalachian State. Despite the multi-receiver sets, the spread option is a run-first scheme which requires a quarterback that is comfortable carrying the ball, a mobile offensive line that can pull and trap effectively, and receivers that can hold their blocks. The essence of the spread option is misdirection. Effectively, this is the old triple option except that it utilizes spread sets. In particular, the quarterback must be able to read the defensive end and determine whether he is collapsing down the line or playing upfield contain.

[svherd]

I don't think we run anything close to a traditional spread. I also think we have to be blalanced, you have to run the ball well and be able to pass the ball equally well - you cannot be one dimensional against todays defenses unless you have far superior talent.

Our offensive line will be the key to how well we do on offense. I firmly believe we have the skill players to do the job but the O line wasn't good last year. Couple that with a new system and a QB in Anderson who wasn't athletically gifted and you get what we got - possibly the worst season of offensive football in MU history - all things considered.

[Johnnyherd]

I think all Marshall fans want a great passing game.   However, the drawbacks of using an offense that relies on a great passing game is that it takes a huge effort and time to develop and frankly sometimes, for a lot of reasons, it just doesn't happen.

It takes time to develop the QB (sometimes a couple of years). It takes times to find the right receivers.  It takes time get them to learn the system.  It takes time for them to develop chemistry.  

Here is the thing, Doc is very good at recruiting speed.   I would love to see us utilize a really fast QB and RB in the same backfield.   I think that it might be our most effective way to compete year in and year out.  I would like to see Doc go after only lightning quick QB's and put about 5 on scholarship.  I'd like to see us attack defense and wear them down.

However, I'm certain that we are in the business of developing passing QBs, which is fine.  We just have to have an outstanding run game in place to keep us in games until the passing game is firing on all cylinders.

[dgparent]

I agree - but I think the running game depends on the following

1. The O Line
2. The QB mobility
3. The RB's

 This year I think we are vastly improved in 2 of the 3 area's and  [QB mobility and RB (TV)] and that we have the potential to be much better on the O line. I think AJ will end up with better throwing numbers than BA at the end of the year, as the run game will make D's play more honest, last year they could pretty much T up on the passing game they knew we could not run.  

 So I think this way last year the opposing D pretty much setup for run on 1st and maybe 2nd then covered everyone on 3rd, that is what we did every series. On 1st down we would get like 3 yards.

 This year I see it going down this way, the opposing D will not be able to just setup for the run on 1st down, I think AJ will have more flexibility than BA did, he can fake the hand off and actually scoot down the field for 7 or 8 yards, that makes the D play stay at home D, so the next down we have 1 less defender down field on our receivers. It opens up the Offense dramatically.

 BA did his best but having a guy with a mediocre arm and 0 ability to run back there helped the opposition a lot.  Our O line will not have to block as long this year. Our RB's should be improved with another year under their belt and a 4 star coming in.
 

[herd2win]

Our identity on offense was to run up the middle for 1 yard when it was 3rd and 8.

[GreenBison60]

Geewizz guys, we couldn't run what they want to run because of Brian Anderson. How many times does it have to be said? If someone Like AJ wins the job and gets settled you will see the QB running the ball more and keep defenses off balance. Everything will look much different with a mobile QB. They were hoping AJ or Sullivan could take the job last year. AJ was in the doghouse and right when they gave him his shot he went down with injury or he would have kept the job. They also gave Sullivan a shot and he simply was not ready to run the team. So they stck with BA and tweaked it a little and made do. Once they get their guy in there and he gets comfortable you will see a huge difference. But GEZZEEEE you can't base what they want to do with BA behind center. He was slow and lathargic and had no in your face leadership qaulities at all. We will be fine moving forward. We will look better as the year goes by this year and will be back to Herd football for sure in 2012.

[wvmafia]

Geewizz guys, we couldn't run what they want to run because of Brian Anderson. How many times does it have to be said? If someone Like AJ wins the job and gets settled you will see the QB running the ball more and keep defenses off balance. Everything will look much different with a mobile QB. They were hoping AJ or Sullivan could take the job last year. AJ was in the doghouse and right when they gave him his shot he went down with injury or he would have kept the job. They also gave Sullivan a shot and he simply was not ready to run the team. So they stck with BA and tweaked it a little and made do. Once they get their guy in there and he gets comfortable you will see a huge difference. But GEZZEEEE you can't base what they want to do with BA behind center. He was slow and lathargic and had no in your face leadership qaulities at all. We will be fine moving forward. We will look better as the year goes by this year and will be back to Herd football for sure in 2012.

+1  Dead on!

[Johnnyherd]

I think that blaming Brian Anderson for everything that went wrong offensively last year is unfair.  I didn't like Brian's as our QB, but he didn't play tackle, guard or center. 

If Brian couldn't run the freakin ball.  Here's a thought.  Don't have Brian Anderson run with the football, in the first place.  Coaches are responsible for that decision, not Brian.  Why waste downs?

Certainly, Brian wasn't the reason we were the 106th worst rushing team in America.

The reality is, Brian is probably the only reason that we won 5 games last year.    Brian was responsible for 2/3 of our offense and he didn't get any help from anyone else.  Brian threw 20 td's.  The next best contributor was Troy Evans with 2 TDs. 

[wvmafia]

Johnny, I'm not "blaming" BA for anything.  He did the best with what was put in front of him.  I think what is perceived as "blame" is the fact that the coaches came in here with an offensive philosophy and we simply didn't have the personnel to run it.  Now, could or should they have changed the philosophy is a whole different discussion.  I was, and still am, one who believes that "tweaking" your system just slows down the progression to the ultimate goal of running it and running it well.  I know that it was painful to watch, but those little one yarders up the middle would have had more room if we would have had a QB who was an outside threat.  ALL of our running plays appeared to me to be based on a "read option" scheme...BA just never, or very rarely, read the QB keep option. 

I'm fired up to watch the offense EXACTLY the way it was last year scheme-wise with the proper personnel...but that's just me drinking my GREEN TEA!

Go Herd.

[IM4DHERD]

Fellas, this is just the second spring practice of Holiday and his staff's regime.  You can throw everything and anything that happened last year out the window.  As these guys continue to recruit the personnel to fit what they want to do, you will see a quantum change in the look of our system over last year's.

[Johnnyherd]

I wasn't meaning that toward you, but I have seen written on here a bunch that Brian was our problem last year.  I wouldn't argue that he could have played better, but I think the problems that we were faced with last year were bigger than Brian running slow qb keeper.  

We should have been able to run the ball and we couldn't.  I don't want to blame people or start being negative, so I'll say that last year was last year.  Legg needs to have an offense that's able to run the football.  

[morpheus]

I think Meister is correct about the SMU spread, the RB had 200+ yards against us last year.  The running game killed us because we set up to stop the pass.  We need that type of flexibility on the O side.  Also, a strong Oline is a good place to start, along with a mobile, accurate QB.

[exanimate]

What bizzarre dimension have we entered into? GB60's posts are damn good lately.

[GreenBison60]

Johnny...nobody is blaming BA for everything. Not at all!!!! But he held the most important position on the team and was NOT the right guy for their offense. It's like if you are a basketball coach and want to run and gun and play fast and furious and you have a slow guy that isn't vocal and lathargic at PG. Can you be succesful running and gunning? And people say why didn't they change the system. You don't just TOTALLY change your entire system. You might tweak it a little but do people realixe how much preparation goes into a "system". You don't just change a "system" from one year to the next. We will be fine in the future. This should be the last year that we have the potential to struggle. I could see us make progress this year in wins or i could see us get better all year and still win about 5. Next year is when you will without doubt see the difference IMO.

[luvherd]

With a QB that runs, we will need a good back-up. Injuries much more common. I think that was the reason for using Sully early last year. You have to be ready for a mid-game change.

[BHFIOHIO]

this whole thread mentions Anderson but not one mention of the drops by the receivers...lol...look at the 2009 throw by BA from about the 30 nto the hands of a receiver in the end zone at UCF..this would have sealed the deal but dropped. Last yr we dropped passes like the ball was too hot..not BA's fauly. The D gives up twice the acceptable points vs BG and
USM and ECU but its all on the QB...lol....these probs wont go away because we want them too...dig? The inability to run the FB has been talked about quite a bit and I dont have anything to add....just want to sday GO HERD...GO DOC...GO TONY AND THE QBs!

[GreenBison60]

It doesn't matter BFOHIO....Yes there was a lot of drops and nobody said that BA wasn't fairly accurate at throwing the football. But he was horrible for Doc's "system". PERIOD!!!!

[HerdKixButt]

So SMU's rb ate us up? Well that's cool to hear. I'm sure all 20 of you guys that got to see the game that determined our bowl eligibility hated watching that...

[field pass]

Unlike Snyder, Doc...like Donnan and BP....wants to keep the defenses guessing.  Snyder wanted to be able to run the ball even when the defenses knew he was going to run the ball...a battle of will...and just wanted to ram it down everyones throat.

BP was pretty close to 50/50 to keep the D guessing....but any type of spread is used for the same reason....regardless of the type of spread....

I dont care what the ration of run to pass is....and ultimately I dont think BP cared....he always said take what they give you....but you must be able to do both and must be able to be balanced if needed...

If the pass is open all the time...and teams play up on us a lot Im sure Doc...and our QB will pass the ball....more....

But with a spread it will be harder for the defenses to take any one thing away because of misdirection....


I think we will be running a style like Urban Myer...not Rich Rod.....

[biggreenarms]

What bizzarre dimension have we entered into? GB60's posts are damn good lately.

They always were informative.