Author Topic: It's coming...  (Read 1765 times)

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Offline wvmafia

It's coming...
« on: July 21, 2011, 08:56:22 AM »
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  • http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6787539/mike-slive-sec-proposes-reforms-college-sports

    It's coming guys.  I know it's not going to be as radical as some of the proposals, but players are going to get a stipend in addition to their scholarships that is going to cost schools millions of dollars a year more than they are paying now.

    One of the things that he said that would have a big effect on us is that he wants his conference to start allowing non-qualifiers to enroll and practice with the teams.  I know that there are some kids who want to play and play now, but I'd say that there are many who have made there way to MU, who are 3* and 4*, that would have stayed in the south and enrolled and give the SEC a shot.

    I know this topic has been batted back and forth as well as debated here, but I honestly believe that there is going to ultimately (by 2020) a 64 team "Super Division" and the rest of the football playing schools in America.  I don't believe that current affiliation will have 100% of the determination in getting into that 64, but it will have a huge influence.  In my opinion it's never been more important for MU to get it going on the field.  Facilities won't help, money won't help, fan support won't help...if we aren't winning on the scoreboard.

    Thoughts?


    "When you take that field today, you've got to lay that heart on the line, men. From the souls of your feet, with every ounce of blood you've got in your body, lay it on the line until the final whistle blows. And if you do that, if you do that, we cannot lose."
     

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    It's coming...
    « on: July 21, 2011, 08:56:22 AM »

    Offline herd2win

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 09:34:32 AM »
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  • There is going to be major changes.  These changes may happen as early as next year.  We have to be realistic at this point.  No model would include MU in the top 64 if that happens.  You have all of the traditional big schools that are already in a BCS conference and then a few others will be added.

    MU will likely be in the second tier of college football.  This level will have the non BCS teams and then probably several current FCS top teams would move up to this division. 
     

    Offline herd_67

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 09:46:01 AM »
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  • I have felt the same way. They will break from the ncaa and make their own rules, championships, etc.  To be quite honest I am afraid we get left behind but you never know. If this does become the case I just hope that there is enough left over for everybody else that are still under the ncaa umbrella. Such as bowl games, payouts, etc.  
     

    Online ThunderDent

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 09:55:34 AM »
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  • Honestly, It's all going to come down to how many conferences end up being "BCS."

    The SEC, ACC, B1G, PAC-12(14/16) will all be fine.

    It depends on how the remaining conferences and affiliations shake out. Will those Big 4 conferences stay at 12, got to 14 or 16. My guess is 14, and that would be the best scenario for us honestly. 16 will kill off all but those 4 leagues more than likely. 14 will keep enough teams that are upper-tier (but not top-tier) players on the outside that there will have to be more than 4 leagues. 12, and we'll probably stay at the status quo.

    And winning is part of it, but money, donations, and facilities are another huge, huge part of it. We are a regional school, with influence spread throughout the state and certain sections of the country, however we draw most of our support from the regional area and alumni. (not support form every tom, weenie & harry that never even sniffed a college campus, that is a die-hard supporter of [insert state school name here].

    We're in the same boat lots of those schools are. Louisville, Cincy, etc.  We do have some well-to-do alumni and donors and a pretty good/supportive fan base. Winning of course helps that. The other thing that brings people in is the opponents you play and interest you draw from that. So getting yourself in the best league you can to play the most attractive opponents you can certainly helps.

    It would be far fetched to think that we belong in the ACC, etc. But what I would hope for our future is staying in a league (once all this blows up ... and it will) ... with the likes of Louisville, Cincinnati, ECU, Memphis, UCF, USF, etc.

    That is where the Herd needs to be. Hopefully with our AD at the helm of things we can make that happen. Hopefully it will be in the upper-mid-tier of schools when it all shakes out.
     

    Offline wvmafia

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 10:09:40 AM »
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  • I don't know if I agree that it's a good thing for college football, but the beast is too big.  When you have SCHOOLS developing their own TV Networks to satisfy their $$$ needs, you know that it can't go on this way.  The SEC schools earned $18,000,000 each last year from TV revenue alone.  The Big Ten schools earned $22,000,000 in TV revenue alone.

    Whether they separate or just become a larger entity inside of the current system (thus hammering the "MU's of the world" due to the addition $$ that will have to be directed their way) I don't know, but with every conference media day, this issue picks up more momentum and I just don't see it being stoppable now.

    Estimates of the "total cost of attendance" being an additional $6-11K per student more than the scholarship itself, that would mean an additional $2.4-4.4M a year for schools...I don't care what happens here in Huntington, I don't see how we could afford to do that and still pay competitive coaching salaries and maintain the facilities we have when that move is made...therefore, I don't see a way to stay on a par with the "blue bloods" even to the same level we are struggling to be able to right now!

    Just one man's opinion.


    "When you take that field today, you've got to lay that heart on the line, men. From the souls of your feet, with every ounce of blood you've got in your body, lay it on the line until the final whistle blows. And if you do that, if you do that, we cannot lose."
     

    Offline ought-three

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 10:16:57 AM »
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  • My right-brain reaction was a Michael Scott "That's what she said".

    My left-brain reaction was that this directly reflects society today: "It's not immoral if we make it legal."
     

    Offline herd_67

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 10:36:21 AM »
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  • I don't know if I agree that it's a good thing for college football, but the beast is too big.  When you have SCHOOLS developing their own TV Networks to satisfy their $$$ needs, you know that it can't go on this way.  The SEC schools earned $18,000,000 each last year from TV revenue alone.  The Big Ten schools earned $22,000,000 in TV revenue alone.

    Whether they separate or just become a larger entity inside of the current system (thus hammering the "MU's of the world" due to the addition $$ that will have to be directed their way) I don't know, but with every conference media day, this issue picks up more momentum and I just don't see it being stoppable now.

    Estimates of the "total cost of attendance" being an additional $6-11K per student more than the scholarship itself, that would mean an additional $2.4-4.4M a year for schools...I don't care what happens here in Huntington, I don't see how we could afford to do that and still pay competitive coaching salaries and maintain the facilities we have when that move is made...therefore, I don't see a way to stay on a par with the "blue bloods" even to the same level we are struggling to be able to right now!

    Just one man's opinion.
     

    This is just an idea and I hope I do not get hammered for this but should Marshall start charging a small price for student tickets? I found out Monday they get them free which I understand with the cost of education & the fees they already pay but I am just thinking there could be more $$$ in the coffers.
     

    Offline phillyherdfan

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #7 on: July 21, 2011, 10:55:14 AM »
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  • My right-brain reaction was a Michael Scott "That's what she said".

    My left-brain reaction was that this directly reflects society today: "It's not immoral if we make it legal."

    I think your left-brain is correct on this one.  The BCS conferences know the BCS system is going to be opened up due to anti-trust issues... therefore they're shifting for change to separate the have from have-nots by proposing a set of rules which only the most elite will be able to afford.
     

    Offline VA Herd Fan

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #8 on: July 21, 2011, 11:20:15 AM »
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  • If they do break away from the NCAA and form their own governing organization doesn't Title IX still apply?  Is that included in your $2-$4 million additional costs?
    Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions.  Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.  Mark Twain
     

    Offline herds

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #9 on: July 21, 2011, 11:51:35 AM »
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  • If they do break away from the NCAA and form their own governing organization doesn't Title IX still apply?  Is that included in your $2-$4 million additional costs?

    Title nine will apply no matter what they do. What would be interesting is the tax exempt status.
     

    Offline ThunderValley

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 03:01:09 PM »
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  • I am not at all suprised at any of this.

    History shows us that greed will destroy anything that gets in it's way.
     

    Offline Marshallguy04

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »
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  • I wrote my dad a very long e-mail about this possibly happening.

    I believe it will singlehandedly bankrupt SEVERAL schools. I believe this because,
    the NCAA did a study/survey and discovered only like 12 school out of 122 NCAA Division 1 schools have self-supporting Athletic Departments.
    Teams like; Texas, Florida, ohio state, Michigan, etc. This is if no alumni donated money or anything. Only 12 schools roughly can do it.
    That's not alot and unless you travel well, you'll take a financial hit going to a bowl game...team costs alot to move and you'd better hope your fans want to go to Pontiac Michigan in December to a bowl game.
     
    So you have schools who can barely afford to stay afloat with their athletics.
    You've got schools who have over a dozen varsity sports...mainly the big name state schools.
    You've got schools (like Stanford) who excel in ALL sports and have high academic standards.
     
    Good luck paying all your athletes. If a school wants to focus the payments on just football players, I'd wholeheartedly expect all other athletes of different sports in the same school (who might be multi-national champions) to accept this...NOT!
    Look at Iowa. Their wrestling team sells out their basketball arena each year and is, by miles, more accomplished than any sport Iowa has ever produced. Do you really think their wrestlers are going to sit back and allow their football team, who can be mediocre, to just be paid? When wrestlers work just as hard, if not harder, and achieve far and beyond what their football team can ever do?
    Let's also not forget the women.
    A whole team of them pissed off at you is even worse. Girls sports in the NCAA rarely generate any money vs. the cost of having them (travel, team meals, etc.) it just doesn't. Whatever the lack of appeal is...just doesn't make much money nationally.
    Now, you're going to be funding for a team who actually nets you a loss because they deserve equal share of what's being distributed.
    Plus,
    You have to make everything equal on all accounts or else you'll find lots and lots of lawsuits on your hands.
     
    This would lead to many schools cutting their sports entirely. Have fun dealing with the disgruntled coaches and players (some of whom are Valedictorians in your top law school) coming back at you 10 fold with demanding equality because you truly showed their value to you...cutting them out despite their winning ways...and throwing them to the curb for a football or basketball team who might barely make it over .500 that season.
    What is the payment of a player? How much are they really worth?
    The star QB vs. a benchwarming scrub on the sidelines...should they both be paid the same amount of money? The free housing a university would provide is pretty equal enough...it's called a scholarship. But that's reserved for the best players. Now, you have to give it to everyone.
    Ask a school president what is more important to them...a great academic university...or a powerful sports team?
    Why shouldn't scholarship students get paid? They're just as effective of people for a university as an athlete. They're actually a much better investment. They'll likely stay out of trouble, they'll graduate and make money in the world further boosting your school's reputation, and finally, in the long-term, come back and donate to your school as a graditude for what you did for them.
    Don't %^&* that up! Seriously.
    Its bad enough for students who don't get academic scholarships who are still very strong students, get shafted by having to go into debt by paying an insane out-of-state tuition. They'll definately be affected by the paying of athletes.
    For the schools who have large numbers of students...like ohio state...many of whom (despite their needing for an MRI examining their reasoning centers of their brains for having chosen to go to such a cancer of a school like ohio state) are likely good people and study and do what is required of them as a student...are going to demand some fair equality, especially since their parents are working double shifts to help pay for their education while a dum&^$r*( like Terelle Pryor sits around, does nothing but throws footballs, has an easier life and gets paid for it.
    Yeah, again, you'll be dealing with a mob holding pitchforks at your door.
     
    As a university president...do you think it's worth sacrificing your academic prowess for a collective group of idiots taking advantage of your school's finances and resources?
    Athletes, are not the smartest bunch...by far. Some are but the majority are not.
    The coaches do not always encourage the athletes to take courses...I'm sure most sensible coaches would say,
    "take a course you'd be good at and want to take"
    The athletes can take full advantage of a school's #1 biology department...or their top 25 Psychology program...and still play ball. Several athletes do it. It's not out of the realm of possibility.
    But the majority feel (like the case of Matt Leinart at USC) Ballroom dancing as a course is going to get you places. Nothing like Film theory or something in the sciences, which USC is known for, is worth it. No, learning to move like a Ballerina on a dancefloor is going to really do you wonders after an NFL career...and you're saving yourself $40,000 in tuition (USC is a private school in Southern California) at the expense of someone who's nearly dead from the workload of their Biology research department.
     
    So, as a president, I ask again, is it worth forking out funds to your athletes, many of whom are already recieveing a very important, yet often overlooked, gift...a FREE TUITION, ROOM AND BOARD, MEAL CARD, TV EXPOSURE! To be paid?
     
    The arrogance of athletes, notably ohio state's athletes, is already bad...just imagine if you paid them. There would be ALOT I mean an ASTRONOMICAL increase in student athlete incidents involving drugs, crime, and the law.
    Let's not forget where many of these players come from. Sadly, they come from broken homes and urban enviornments. Their skills as a player help them get further in life.
    This would be exponentially compounded if you gave an athlete money...especially if he/she has had a history of drug related incidents growing up.
    The towns and cities these kids are in with schools, already cater to their value with spoken words and under the table gifts...imagine if it was legal...these kids would think they're above the law!
     
    Finally,
    Who in the blue hell is going to pay for all this? Certainly not me! You're lucky dad, you went to a school where the sport is a bloodbath of moving parts and mechanized nightmares...robots being built then sent to destroy each other...or to see who can make the best Rube Goldberg Machine at MIT.
    But schools like Texas and Florida...where football is a religion? Those schools will raise tuition for people almost to the point of undeniable financial obligation for life.
    It's bad enough Brookes' girlfriend went to Penn State (actually I like Penn State) but the tuition...for a 4 year college like that...with no job during (or soon after) that could give you a financial umbrella to work with...is insanely high. You're in debt the moment you are accepted.

    She's not the only one. Another girl I know didn't go to ohio state because she had to pay over $300 for football tickets she wasn't even guaranteed to get as part of her already insane tuition.
    I highly doubt schools with major research in them, would want to give up (again, another lawsuit) their money to fund for dumb jocks to piss around taking "Alphabet 101" or "Remedial Reading 1a" because they're not in better courses.
    Do you ask the alumni? Do you think they'd go along with it? Sure...if you're from Texas or Florida. It's not likely to happen if you're from anywhere else.
    Let's also not forget the fact that WE'RE IN A DAMN DEPRESSION RIGHT NOW!!!
    Also, the population of America is starting to question the effectiveness of higher education. Is it even worth it to go to college? they'd be on the fence but an increase in tuition would certainly draw them away.
     
    There's no doubt there will be a ton of things to look into in regards to all of this. I know several schools would have to cut their programs which isn't pretty...and it'd look grossly immoral and greedy.

    It's just not a good mix right now. However, I am fortunate someone like Mike Hamrick is building us back up and will hopefully be able to make a case for us to become part of the pack. It'll be a real struggle to do so but I don't doubt he'll give it his all for Marshall.
     

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »

    Offline Huffnagel

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #12 on: July 21, 2011, 04:52:33 PM »
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  •  

    This is just an idea and I hope I do not get hammered for this but should Marshall start charging a small price for student tickets? I found out Monday they get them free which I understand with the cost of education & the fees they already pay but I am just thinking there could be more $$$ in the coffers.
    I believe they already do. Every student pays a "activity fee" that allows them to enter all sporting events and recreational facilities. Last time I heard I thought it was about $350 per student, per semester.
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    Offline herd_67

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 04:55:56 PM »
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  • Insightful post '04. That is why I love this board, I get to hear opinions of people who are smarter than i am. (I am being serious)  The only thing I can think of is if the tv contract is so astronomical (in these tough times) that the schools get a much larger chunk of the coin than they do now.
     

    Offline herd_67

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 04:57:41 PM »
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  • I believe they already do. Every student pays a "activity fee" that allows them to enter all sporting events and recreational facilities. Last time I heard I thought it was about $350 per student, per semester.
      Thank you I noticed that on the list but it didn't register. :)
     

    Offline ThunderValley

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 05:20:03 PM »
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  • how much would it costs a university (lets just say Stanford) for a football player to get a "full ride" for 4 years  complete with food and lodging and all the other benifits they get with the full scolly, ?

    now take that amount and split it up monthly as if it were a salary. I would say they are already getting paid very well.
     

    Offline herd_67

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 05:36:59 PM »
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  • You are correct Thunder & I agree but there are alot of people that think they should be paid. I feel more don't but believe so but that is jmo.
     

    Offline Marshallguy04

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #17 on: July 21, 2011, 06:44:15 PM »
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  • how much would it costs a university (lets just say Stanford) for a football player to get a "full ride" for 4 years  complete with food and lodging and all the other benifits they get with the full scolly, ?

    now take that amount and split it up monthly as if it were a salary. I would say they are already getting paid very well.

    $55,000 a year to go there...  :o
     

    Offline Marshallguy04

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #18 on: July 21, 2011, 06:56:16 PM »
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  • Insightful post '04. That is why I love this board, I get to hear opinions of people who are smarter than i am. (I am being serious)  The only thing I can think of is if the tv contract is so astronomical (in these tough times) that the schools get a much larger chunk of the coin than they do now.

    Thank you.

    If this goes through...I predict a few things.

    Quality of play in the SEC will go down. Bad enough athletes struggle to make the grades they have, imagine increasing the difficulty level. If you want to remain "honest."
    It might motivate high schools to better teach students and help fix our failing school systems.

    You'll see some conferences losing teams for specific sports. Duke would cut football but retain basketball in order to be able to pay players, as would UConn men and women.
    Vanderbilt wouldnt have a football team but keep basketball. Would that mean theyd still be in the SEC?

    I wonder how Marshall would approach this?
     

    Offline herd2win

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 02:08:55 PM »
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  • This is a bad idea.  The arms race that has been occurring in the last ten years will end up being the downfall of college sports.  The huge majority of schools do not make any money from their athletic departments.  You are going to have a select few teams that can afford this and then the rest.

    Has the ability to suck the fun out of college sports.
     

    Offline wvmafia

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 02:34:48 PM »
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  •  You are going to have a select few teams that can afford this and then the rest.

    Has the ability to suck the fun out of college sports.

    Yep...there have always been "haves" and "have nots"...it's just going to come to a physical "line in the sand" to tell the world who those parties are.

    As for the "fun" being sucked out of college sports, I would argue that, except for game day on campus, the fun got sucked out when the BsCS was formed.  College football is fun for 3 hours on Saturday, but it's nothing more than a mini-NFL the other 40-49 weeks a year.  The advantage that we will have as MU fans, is that we realize that there can be a ton of fun in being the winner of the small minnow pool.  I don't think it's a 100% bad thing --- yet I still hate the fact that we will be "relegated" to a "lower level".


    "When you take that field today, you've got to lay that heart on the line, men. From the souls of your feet, with every ounce of blood you've got in your body, lay it on the line until the final whistle blows. And if you do that, if you do that, we cannot lose."
     

    Offline herd_67

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 04:14:34 PM »
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  • Good point as well Mafia & I agree with you especially for the big timer's being a "mini-nfl". As for Marshall being on the lower level, well like you said we can still have our fun and  better things come in smaller packages.Imo it is better than being involved with all the greed & the blood sucking leaches.

     Bill King has stated "we are talking about a very slippery slope" when you start talking about paying college athletes & it will get very ugly.
     

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 04:14:34 PM »

    Offline greenskeeper

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 04:01:00 PM »
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  • What if? When you start paying, you are no longer an amature, you become a paid professional...what if there's a back lash by college fans, that think they'd rather watch NON paid teams over paid teams, since paid teams are indeed PRO. Why not just watch the NFL?
    What do you call a place where the coaches are drunks, the players pistol whip local citizens and the fans mug and rob expecting mothers ? You call it - THE FLAGSHIP PROGRAM IN THE STATE OF WV!!! Ollie Luck AD
     

    Offline wvmafia

    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #23 on: July 23, 2011, 04:04:59 PM »
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  • What if? When you start paying, you are no longer an amature, you become a paid professional...what if there's a back lash by college fans, that think they'd rather watch NON paid teams over paid teams, since paid teams are indeed PRO. Why not just watch the NFL?

    That's a great idea --- but do you honestly believe that 93,000 LSU fans are going to say, "let's boycott the games with these 'paid' players"?  or fans of Texas, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Florida, whOregon, Auburn, Alabama, Michigan?

    NOPE --- never, be honest with yourself...you know it too.


    "When you take that field today, you've got to lay that heart on the line, men. From the souls of your feet, with every ounce of blood you've got in your body, lay it on the line until the final whistle blows. And if you do that, if you do that, we cannot lose."
     

    Offline greenskeeper

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #24 on: July 23, 2011, 05:10:26 PM »
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  • My point is this: it will evolve into a PRO league because it IS a pro league...and purists won't want it in college football. So in reality the league that may suffer the most will be THE NFL- not the have nots. Let Jerry the idiot Jones think on that...$.
    What do you call a place where the coaches are drunks, the players pistol whip local citizens and the fans mug and rob expecting mothers ? You call it - THE FLAGSHIP PROGRAM IN THE STATE OF WV!!! Ollie Luck AD
     

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    Re: It's coming...
    « Reply #24 on: July 23, 2011, 05:10:26 PM »