Topic: Couple of legit questions I have....

[BULLHALSEY]

This has been bothering me since Saturday, so I'll vent a little bit.  Why, why after all the problems we've had with teams dinking and dunking us on the pass, does the coaching staff still have our DB's 10-12 yds off the ball? I mean, does it not make more sense to press or at minimum 5 yds off?  If the coaches say well, it's because we don't want to get burned deep....where is the rationale in that?  I say let a team beat us deep.  It's a much higher % pass play chucking the ball down the field, is it not?  Plus, by playing off the WR's so far, wvu did it all day, AND SCORED EVERY TIME anyway!  So what does that do to us?  It wears our a$$es out on defense.  Is this so hard? Am I missing something here?
The second question I have is about our players and recruits.
I do think we have some great talent.  I think we have probably 5 outstanding RB's.  And I think we are very deep and talented at WR.  And I think we are extremely mediocre on the D-Line.  So the question I have is:  Why do we need 5 fantastic RB's, probably 7 very good WR's?  Why are we not more balanced as a football team?  Why do we not have more D-Lineman that can get to the QB? And LB's that can stuff the run?
That's it, I'm done.  If anyone can help make this clear to me, I'd welcome it.

[s1uggo]

This has been bothering me since Saturday, so I'll vent a little bit.  Why, why after all the problems we've had with teams dinking and dunking us on the pass, does the coaching staff still have our DB's 10-12 yds off the ball? I mean, does it not make more sense to press or at minimum 5 yds off?  If the coaches say well, it's because we don't want to get burned deep....where is the rationale in that?  I say let a team beat us deep.  It's a much higher % pass play chucking the ball down the field, is it not?  Plus, by playing off the WR's so far, wvu did it all day, AND SCORED EVERY TIME anyway!  So what does that do to us?  It wears our a$$es out on defense.  Is this so hard? Am I missing something here?
The second question I have is about our players and recruits.
I do think we have some great talent.  I think we have probably 5 outstanding RB's.  And I think we are very deep and talented at WR.  And I think we are extremely mediocre on the D-Line.  So the question I have is:  Why do we need 5 fantastic RB's, probably 7 very good WR's?  Why are we not more balanced as a football team?  Why do we not have more D-Lineman that can get to the QB? And LB's that can stuff the run?

the second part- is , it is much tougher to find those D Linemen and LB, everybody is looking for them, but they are tough to find.  One reason is size.  You can get away with a 5 8 190 rb that is fast,. but you can not get away withe a 5 10 200 lb DE that is fast.  to a certain extent, we tried that Satuday!!
Now why our corners play so deep may be one of the 8 wonders of the world, nobody can explain it!!!
That's it, I'm done.  If anyone can help make this clear to me, I'd welcome it.

[HerdBlizz]

22 of Geno's 32 passes were less that 10 yards

[Greg H]

Bull.  I think the assessment was to not get beaten deep.  You are right.  And by and large, we did not.  Geno had ALL DAY and usually didn't find the long ball.  Also, most of his passes were short.  Why not adjust to press coverage?  Because they have the best 2-receiver group in the country in Austin and Bailey.  Press them with untested corners and you are HOSED.  But, I agree with the assessment regarding percentages.  But I don't think press coverage was the way to go.  They should have gone to man with large cushions, and moved guys to the center of the field to cover the run.  Either way, if you take away the run, you'll get torched deep by Austin/Bailey.  Bottom line, because we had no real pass rush, we were destined to lose by a million points.

Agree we need more good D linemen.  Right now, we are very young there, but Doc has quite a few in the pipeline.  Simple reality is that we lost Vinny, who was the best we ever had, and we lost Johnson, who was EXTREMELY underrated.  I think this D will be OK (just OK) against conference opponents, but there was just no way to compete in the hole.

I look at it this way.  As fans, we've craved productive offense for years.  Doc knows that and he's clearly building a great offensive unit.  They appear to be very, very good now, and that's clearly been Doc's emphasis.  I'll take a weaker D if it means we explode offensively (and it looks like we will).  But we are building on D too.  Look at Josh Brown, the Clemson prop on campus now, as well as others.  Rome wasn't built in a day...but I do share your frustration on this point. 

[wvmafia]

What is so confounding about the "cushion" against wvu is that all during fall workouts, we were jamming receivers.  Why practice one way and play another? 

I definitely don't get that at all.

[Greg H]

Because that is the only team on the scheduled GUARANTEED to torch our secondary if we press their receivers?  I would think that's the reason...not being a smart ass.

[girthyherdon]

I would think with the talent we have on the D-line (J Samuel, Dillon, Smith, Aiken, Sparrow, etc) we would be somewhat decent up front. Obviously I was wrong. As for the cushions on the WR's, I have no damn idea.

[s1uggo]

Because that is the only team on the scheduled GUARANTEED to torch our secondary if we press their receivers?  I would think that's the reason...not being a smart ass.

as a db you have to able to do both.   Come up and press, they still have to throw it, and catch it!!   Saying the DB's cant press, or saying they cant play man to man, is like the OL coach saying 'hey we have to run because we cant pass block'

[lovetheherd2]

What is so confounding about the "cushion" against wvu is that all during fall workouts, we were jamming receivers.  Why practice one way and play another?  

I definitely don't get that at all.

As I said in another thread, here's what I THINK happened & it makes sense at least to me.

The coaches after watching our defensive line for training camp, then watching hours and hours of film on wvuhoo OL line and Geno's escapes, decided there was no way our DL and LB's could get to or hurry Geno. Having decided that, the scheme was to stop the long ball, at least in the beginning.

Unfortuantely, the coaches were more than right. We did not come close to touching Geno. Even if it were flag football or touch, no one came close. That's why he hit 32 of 34, he took what we were giving him, the short throws. If the DBs had played up, the WRs would have had time to make two cuts, then zig zag and they would have put up 80 points or more. Their wr's are fast and run good routes. Their passing game is very good.

In the battle of our DL versus their OL, we were not able to handle it. We did better with our OL versus their DL, for the most part. And so it goes.

I will be surprised if the DBs play the same scheme against most of the rest of our opponents.. We will win some of those line battles.

[mkinder]

A couple of things... IMO Good defensive linemen who can make an impact out of HS are the most rare of recruits and they go to the SEC. Most good defensive linemen in college today are juniors or seniors because it takes that long to build the size and strength to be effective (like Curry and Johnson). I feel we have some D linemen in the works who will be very solid in there Jr and Sr years. Not making drastic changes at halftime (or sooner) in the defensive scheme is beyond me.

[HerdEcon]

A couple of things... IMO Good defensive linemen who can make an impact out of HS are the most rare of recruits and they go to the SEC. Most good defensive linemen in college today are juniors or seniors because it takes that long to build the size and strength to be effective (like Curry and Johnson). I feel we have some D linemen in the works who will be very solid in there Jr and Sr years. Not making drastic changes at halftime (or sooner) in the defensive scheme is beyond me.

^^^^^ That.

[Sam-I-am]

"Why do we need 5 fantastic RB's,"

My guess would be to have a clock eating, balanced attack offense that shortens the game to keep the opponents offense off the field as much as possible with less "touches" overall.  Having a stable of fresh, quality backs makes this type of offense possible. Problem is, with our D I think better teams with strong running games will score at will on us.  Hope we're not content with clock eatening drives they may or may not end up with a field goal. We'll see the next few games what the offensive philosophy will indeed be for the season.

[parshall2marshall]

Lot of good points made in this thread. As to the original question herein, I came up with what I believe to be the only logical answer in December 2008 ... after 5 seasons of pounding my head against the wall, asking myself why did I just see / hear what I just saw / heard.

So I don't ask myself questions like that any more, and go forward with the belief that Marshall will not be left behind.

p2m

[IM4DHERD]

I'd explained to some at our tailgate that last year we played off because we didn't have all the clubs in the bag.  If you have a par four with a 240 yard carry over water, you hit driver or you hit two seven irons around it.  Last year we didn't have a driver, so we hit 7 irons.  We've supposedly upgraded, but at the same time we were arguably playing two of the top ten receivers in college football this year, one of whom is labelled the most exciting player in the game today by Herbstreit, which complicates things just a tad.  I doubt you will be anyone, including TX and OK, pressing these guys.

I do wonder, however, if AJ Leggett and Thomas might have been more effective playing a few yards closer given the change.  Lovett had a great game, but don't know that he has the same raw physical abilities as the others??

[FlyHawk98]

For anyone who has ever played either WR or DB, and not some middle school stuff but at a high level, you would know that 1 on 1s (aka man to man) is set up for the receiver.

The ONLY time we should be playing press is if we are in a blitz package or showing blitz. To just line up and play press man is about the dumbest thing a person could do. No matter how good you are as a DB, if you keep playing straight man your going to get beat. So why would we put 3-4 one on one situations on the field? Especially against an offense as good as WVU's. If it's very good for a DB to win half their man battles how could expect all 4 guys to win their battles 3 plays in a row?

If we are going to play press, we need to be bringing the heat. The reason you play press during a blitz is the QB will recognize the blitz and thus try to get rid of the ball much quicker. If we blitz AND play 10 yards off then that is just as dumb as playing press man the whole game imo.

I'm also disappointed that we don't play more cover 2. We could show man and disguise it and then let our CB's beat the crap out of the WRs. Not only that, but as a CB it truly help you build confidence and get more into the flow of the game.

We don't play enough cat and mouse on defense imo.

[lovetheherd2]

For anyone who has ever played either WR or DB, and not some middle school stuff but at a high level, you would know that 1 on 1s (aka man to man) is set up for the receiver.

The ONLY time we should be playing press is if we are in a blitz package or showing blitz. To just line up and play press man is about the dumbest thing a person could do. No matter how good you are as a DB, if you keep playing straight man your going to get beat. So why would we put 3-4 one on one situations on the field? Especially against an offense as good as WVU's. If it's very good for a DB to win half their man battles how could expect all 4 guys to win their battles 3 plays in a row?

If we are going to play press, we need to be bringing the heat. The reason you play press during a blitz is the QB will recognize the blitz and thus try to get rid of the ball much quicker. If we blitz AND play 10 yards off then that is just as dumb as playing press man the whole game imo.

I'm also disappointed that we don't play more cover 2. We could show man and disguise it and then let our CB's beat the crap out of the WRs. Not only that, but as a CB it truly help you build confidence and get more into the flow of the game.

We don't play enough cat and mouse on defense imo.

Thanks for the futher clarification Flyhawk98. For those of us who did NOT play WR or DB, your further info helps. It's kind of what I was trying to say in a round about way.

If you combine that info with 3 of the five or six DB's were playing their first real game together and wvwhoo' line is pretty damn good, all good reasons to play off the ball, at least more than we should expect against lesser teams.

I think we'll some pretty good defense by the next couple of games. We will need everything against Ohio.

[BHFIOHIO]

See where La Tech is -3  this week playing UH. Forget where the game is but it seems this would be a game to bet. Admit I am only knowing two facts....Tech returned a lot from last yr and Houston underachieved last week. I figure LT might win double digits. Could be wrong...often am.

[BHFIOHIO]

meant to use the above as a new topic. Oh well

[mkinder]

you are exactly right Hawk98. I was screaming for press coverage and all out blitz early in the 2nd quarter. Yes you may get burned but you also force the QB to make quick decisions in a very fast moving situation which can lead to mistakes. This strategy is also effective against the run in many cases. I don't disagree with our strategy of dropping 8 initially but after seeing the way they were moving the ball I feel we should have adjusted.

[marshallz13]

I honestly have no idea on the coverage, i agree we should of played more agressive cause we do this every year against WVU and we still give up big yards, with the rb's some looked decent but we are always so inconsistent on the ground so we put most of the offense through the air thats why 13 different players caught the ball.

[svherd]

This situation reminds me of a game back in 1987 or 88; we went to Richmond, KY to play EKU. This was when EKU was looked at as one of the top dogs in 1AA. They had a great QB and passed the ball very well. As opposed to playing scared like Rippon and Doc do, George Chaump and our DC elected to blitz on every down for the most part and our corners were physical at the line. We won that game because of that. The EKU QB HAD PRESSURE ALL DAY and couldn't get many easy looks at his recievers.
I get sick of watching Rippon's tactics blow up in our faces. It better change, and better change quick!!!!!!!!!! >:(

[MarshallGrad]

I think I know fantastic. Bradshaw was fantastic. Chapman was fantastic. Parker was fantastic. But then, these guys had some pretty strong numbers to back that up.

It was suggested that we currently have perhaps five "fantastic" running backs. How is performance being measured to conclude that. Is it just a way of showing support to say that, is it a reflection of eyeballing something and guessing what they would be like on another team, or is there some specific measuring rod used that results in a grade of "fantastic" for five of them? I'm not being sarcastic, I like to know how some folks measure performance when describing it.

[Greg H]

You DO NOT put press coverage on the likes of Austin/Baily, especially with a weak pass rush.  Even Alabama isn't stupid enough to think they could get away with press coverage, especially man , against WVU for very long. 

[FlyHawk98]

you are exactly right Hawk98. I was screaming for press coverage and all out blitz early in the 2nd quarter. Yes you may get burned but you also force the QB to make quick decisions in a very fast moving situation which can lead to mistakes. This strategy is also effective against the run in many cases. I don't disagree with our strategy of dropping 8 initially but after seeing the way they were moving the ball I feel we should have adjusted.

Yes I also think we should have adjusted. You have to at least do this every now and then. As a DB you like to get up in there and rough the WR up a little bit, talk some trash etc. As a WR they HATE that. The WRs dont like being pushed around, having to fight for their position from the get go. Most are finesse and run their routes the same every time. You'd be surprised at what a little bump here and there could do to mess with them and timing of the routes.

One other thing I dont understand is when we do blitz why don't we bring multiple guys from the same side. Its like this. Offense like WVU's and a lot of CUSA is spread. They have center, and then guard and tackle to each side. So all they can block to a side is 3 people with their 3 people. Blitzing both OLB's off the edge does nothing except create one on ones across the line. IF we brought the OLB and someone else from the same side, say the MLB or Safety then we would have 4 on one side to their 3 people to block.

Now most of the time the outside guy will run free because each lineman is taught to protect their inside gap first. This would allow for the QB to get rid of the ball but it would have to be done in a hurry. BUT, if we could get those 2-3 times where the tackle takes the outside guy leaving an inside man free, then we will be in the QBs face before he even knew what happened.

I just feel our blitz package is very elementary. We never show one blitz and run another, we rarely do stunts. I just don't get it to be honest....oh well, just hope we win and most importantly I hope we learn how to tackle. If we don't tackle better it doesn't matter what type of defense we run or the type of plays we call.

[Buffalo Bop]

We had no pressure on Geno and couldn't stop the run. Geno said he took what the D gave them and that resulted in 331 yards of rushing. We flooded the backfield and relied on the D line to contain the run without any pressure. Throw in shoddy tackling and there you are. Pathetic. No matter the offense, the first duty of the D is to stop the run. If a team can run on you, then it's all over.

Doc needs to make a hard decision on Rippon this season or after, whether to keep him or cut him loose.