Topic: The Great MAC Irony of Marshall Fandom

[extragreen]

Back in the days we were winning in the mac, we played 5 games against the upper half of cusa teams in bowl games. We won 80% of those bowl games. If we had just won 75% of our cusa games over the last 8 years (which included both upper and lower half teams of the conference), we would still not have a single losing regular season. We would have gone:

6-5
7-5
6-6
7-5
8-4
7-5
7-5
7-5

And wouldn't that have gotten us 8 bowl games?

[_sturt_]

(Sorry but you lost me... is this in response to something I said or something someone else said?)

[extragreen]

Comment regarding the thread as a whole.

I'm frustrated the last 8 years.

[rvntx]

We do not have the funds. Facilities are coming but, still behind many others.

[catfanatic1979]

We used to wonder how these fans of Miami, Ball State, Ohio, Toledo, Bowling Green et al had become so content with their status in a conference no one cared about, vying for championships that no one cared about.

I recall vividly how they used to mock us for thinking that we could become something better, to raise to some national acclaim... at the very least, to become something better than that school up north.

But now, after ten years or so of mediocrity and with that school up north now playing in a real conference, many of you have lost your swagger, not just a little bit, but totally... and you've become what many of you used to loathe... a MAC fan... just a southern-based one now.

Figure there's a whole bunch of MAC fans who used to despise us, smiling big and wide at the knowledge that we've been  humbled, our ambition is exhausted, and we're now going to be settling into a football conference arguably a notch below theirs.

Happy day. Let's celebrate with them, eh? We've finally reached our proper place in the NCAA football universe.

A notch below the MAC? Your pathetic.

[extragreen]

Yes. Below the mac. Nearly every publication I've seen for 2012 has cusa ranked below both the mac and sunbelt. And that's before the loss of ucf, houston, and tulsa. It then gets worse. None of the new members replace the football strength of those we are losing.  

[vandalia]

A notch below the MAC? Your pathetic.

wow

[Herd 90]

You quarter-fullers who are reading this... don't blame the guy using the smelling salts... instead, appreciate the fact that someone tried to wake you up to realize the hazy state you've been in.

Wow.  A message board savior.   ::)

[Herd 90]

wow

I would have to agree with that opinion.  The new Sunbelt is a notch below the MAC, if not two notches.

[_sturt_]

Wow.  A message board savior.   ::)

I suppose you could read it that way, but that wasn't the intent. The point was in reaction to the charge that I should be ashamed for being antagonistic... a message board devil, if you will. The picture in my head is more like the low-paid, low-appreciated trainer, smelling salts in-hand, walking down the bench player by player.

[extragreen]

I'm concerned about the use of smelling salts for the treatment of all those with concussions.

[_sturt_]

We used to wonder how these fans of Miami, Ball State, Ohio, Toledo, Bowling Green et al had become so content with their status in a conference no one cared about, vying for championships that no one cared about.

I recall vividly how they used to mock us for thinking that we could become something better, to raise to some national acclaim... at the very least, to become something better than that school up north.

But now, after ten years or so of mediocrity and with that school up north now playing in a real conference, many of you have lost your swagger, not just a little bit, but totally... and you've become what many of you used to loathe... a MAC fan... just a southern-based one now.

Figure there's a whole bunch of MAC fans who used to despise us, smiling big and wide at the knowledge that we've been  humbled, our ambition is exhausted, and we're now going to be settling into a football conference arguably a notch below theirs.

Happy day. Let's celebrate with them, eh? We've finally reached our proper place in the NCAA football universe.

A notch below the MAC? Your pathetic.

"Arguably."

[ThunderValley]

Sturt is raining sh!t down again  ;D

                     

[_sturt_]

Valley, sorry... I'd respond but I have no clue what that means. I can only guess, you found an emoticon, fell in love with it, and made a post.

Rather, what I'm doing... at least in this thread... is shining a light on the stark similarity between how some of our fans... the quarter-fullers... are now talking and the talk of many of the MAC fans who we used to disparage for their limited, regionalized, and ambition-less attitudes.

Sure, it stinks... and maybe that's what you were getting at... but the manure is there regardless of whether it's me or someone else who points it out.

[banker]

Not sure about the "spirit" part, but except for Charlotte, we can get some idea on attendance (bear in mind that 2011 is most recent NCAA has published, but I looked up UTSA's 2012 numbers separately since they ascended to the WAC from FCS last season)...

• CUSA Defectors' Average Home Attendance: 29,454
  
• CUSA Left-Behinds' Average Home Attendance: 22,870
  
• CUSA Newbies' Average Home Attendance: 20,544
  
• MAC Average Home Attendance: 17,033
  

So... probably better attendance than MAC... but no way is future CUSA going to beat current CUSA.

Like many of your posts, you try and paint a picture that goes to your point while ignoring any depth to the argument.  The average attendance of the teams leaving is basically driven by two factors - ECU, which has great attendance, second best of any non-Big 5 school, and the fact that Tulane lies, to the point of absurdity, about the number of fans they have come to games.  Tulane, SMU, and Memphis have bad attendance, Houston has good attendance when they win (it immediately goes away when they lose), UCF has good attendance (but not considering the size of the student body or market they are in).

Here's something else you ignore in the "newbie's average".  ODU averages 20,057, which is 101% of capacity.  They sold 14,500 season tickets last year and had a waiting list of over 8,000.  When their stadium expansion is complete they will average over 30,000.

By the way, 2012 numbers are available:

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/attendance/fbs_attendance.html

Here are some notes for comparison:

As I said, I'll give you ECU, they have great attendance and are an outlier.  They averaged 47,013 last year.  UCF was at 34,608.  After that you have a drop off in those leaving - Houston fell from 31k in 2011 to 27K in 2012, followed by Memphis (24k), SMU (21K), Tulsa (20k) and Tulane (18k - yeah, right, more like 3K).  So if you either take out ECU, or adjust Tulane to their real attendance, the average is more like 24k.

We picked up USTA (29k) and La Tech (26k), which compare very favorably.  As mentioned, we also get ODU, which will be the conference leader in attendance when their stadium upgrades are done.  UNT, MTSU, and WKU are all similar to Tulsa and the reported attendance of Tulane (except their fans are actually there).  Plus we still have USM and Marshall that average 25,000 and UTEP that was over 29k last year.  The weakness is with FIU/FAU and the continued presence of UAB.

As far as the MAC goes, they have 4 schools below the worst school in new CUSA.  EMU averaged a whopping 3,900 last year and the league average was under 15k.

[_sturt_]

Like many of your posts, you try and paint a picture that goes to your point while ignoring any depth to the argument.  The average attendance of the teams leaving is basically driven by two factors - ECU, which has great attendance, second best of any non-Big 5 school, and the fact that Tulane lies, to the point of absurdity, about the number of fans they have come to games.  Tulane, SMU, and Memphis have bad attendance, Houston has good attendance when they win (it immediately goes away when they lose), UCF has good attendance (but not considering the size of the student body or market they are in).

Here's something else you ignore in the "newbie's average".  ODU averages 20,057, which is 101% of capacity.  They sold 14,500 season tickets last year and had a waiting list of over 8,000.  When their stadium expansion is complete they will average over 30,000.

By the way, 2012 numbers are available:

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/attendance/fbs_attendance.html

Here are some notes for comparison:

As I said, I'll give you ECU, they have great attendance and are an outlier.  They averaged 47,013 last year.  UCF was at 34,608.  After that you have a drop off in those leaving - Houston fell from 31k in 2011 to 27K in 2012, followed by Memphis (24k), SMU (21K), Tulsa (20k) and Tulane (18k - yeah, right, more like 3K).  So if you either take out ECU, or adjust Tulane to their real attendance, the average is more like 24k.

We picked up USTA (29k) and La Tech (26k), which compare very favorably.  As mentioned, we also get ODU, which will be the conference leader in attendance when their stadium upgrades are done.  UNT, MTSU, and WKU are all similar to Tulsa and the reported attendance of Tulane (except their fans are actually there).  Plus we still have USM and Marshall that average 25,000 and UTEP that was over 29k last year.  The weakness is with FIU/FAU and the continued presence of UAB.

As far as the MAC goes, they have 4 schools below the worst school in new CUSA.  EMU averaged a whopping 3,900 last year and the league average was under 15k.

Not really fair to me, banker. There was no disingenuousness on my part, and in fact, I did some extra homework to get at UTSA's better numbers. I do appreciate the link. Sincerely, when I went to the NCAA site, the most recent choice I found was 2011.

As said in another post, though...

...this issue is so much larger than average attendance regardless... among all of the schools in question, the defectors group, the leftovers group, and the newbies group, the average attendance is within about 10K of each other... but the defectors are a good 5K beyond the leftovers, and the leftovers are about 2-3k greater than the newbies.

The more salient issues concern the related issues of TV revenue, national standing/branding/perception, and not access to the BCS berth, but likelihood of achieving that berth based on historical precedent...

So, even accepting your analysis, the point remains... attendance averages for the groups fall within a pretty narrow, and for any one school, attendance is a moving target... you or anyone else can point to Tulane's 3K this year, but we all know that these things tend to be cyclical, and the day will come again when Tulane has a respectable attendance, maybe even as much as the 30-40K of their 1990s heydays.

It's not the tipping point issue.

But it's probably the best you and others can do.

After all, you sure has heck can't argue that MTSU (et al) has a national brand, or that we would be so blessed when we finally get that Sun Belt-like TV contract, or that our conference is going to be poised to challenge for that BCS berth with the on a perennial basis.

So, wallow in your MAC-ness, but don't pretend that I'm deliberately misleading here. I'm not. I don't have to.

[ThunderValley]

.

[banker]

National brand?  Here's some info for you, there's only about a dozen college football teams that have a national brand and we never have been, nor never will be, in a conference with any of them. You think you can find any following for any of the teams in the new not the Big East conference outside of, at best, their home state?  Most of them aren't even the biggest brand in the city they are located in. Houston, SMU and UCF certainly aren't and Tulane isn't even an afterthought in Nola.

I believe with schools like La Tech, ODU, WKU, and MTSU you are getting schools that at least matter to their communities and students. You couple those with Marshall, USM, and UTEP and that's a good start. It is different from MAC schools where their students are Ohio State or Michigan fans first and foremost.

[_sturt_]

banker, I don't know what you want to call it... I happen to think that "national brand" captures the essence of it... but if you want to find some other terminology, I'm fine with that... the bottom line remains, one that I know you know but that you're just being stubborn to admit, that schools are perceived differently, and that while that difference might be subjective, TV execs like shoe are nonetheless able to translate that perception into something measurable--ie, the likely television audience for any given school. There is a recognition factor that makes it more likely for Joe Fan to pause to watch a few minutes of a game that includes Memphis or Tulane before he would pause to watch MTSU or La Tech... and that's borne out by the fact that there is such a disparity between what the CUSA defectors have commanded historically in TV contracts to which they have been a party versus what the CUSA newbies have commanded. And why is that important? Because TV contracts are based on what audience the network projects is likely to attract, and thus determine what advertising rates will be, which is where all the money comes from in the first place.

All things being equal, in any given year, will Florida command more of an audience than UCF? Sure.

But all things being equal, in any given year, it's also more likely that UCF will command a bigger audience than FIU.

You know this. Stop pretending you don't.

And this idea that La Tech students aren't LSU fans first and foremost? That ODU fans aren't UVa or VaTech fans first and foremost? That WKU fans aren't UofL or UK fans first and foremost? Or that MTSU fans aren't Tennessee fans first and foremost?

Why are you kidding yourself?

Those schools' fans see no conflict in supporting both their own school and one of their state's power schools because they just don't perceive their schools' football teams to be on the same planet... and no, that's unlike us... we believe... OR AT LEAST WE USED TO (!)... that we ought to be able to compete with WVU... and even to go play Georgia or Ohio State or K-State and have a shot at winning.

(I swear, it's like aliens swooped in and abducted so many of my Marshall brothers/sisters, and replaced them with reconditioned Toledo and Miami fans using the HerdFans usernames so familiar to me.)

[MUsince96]

Anybody familiar with South Park?  Ever seen the episode where everyone in San Fransisco likes the smell of their own farts?    If so you see where I'm going with this...

[_sturt_]

Anybody familiar with South Park?  Ever seen the episode where everyone in San Fransisco likes the smell of their own farts?    If so you see where I'm going with this...

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

96, I see that when you have nothing of merit to say, you substitute simple-minded attempts at humor.

Get in line.

I obviously consider this to be likely the most important issue to MU athletics, at least in my adult life. We've been able to ascend up the national ladder, and now, you and others are embracing being knocked down a couple of rungs. It's just so unconscionable and disconcerting and unnecessary, again, at least at this stage.

[2xBison]

Banker

The thing about proving Sturt wrong is....two things

1) he never admits it
2) he types even more

[_sturt_]

See, 96? What did I tell you? The line starts behind 2x now.

[MUsince96]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e5YOzFuYMH8

[_sturt_]

(96 = The cool kid who, when the class discussion gets above his head, defaults to his inner class clown in an attempt to deflect from people noticing.)

So... since it's come to this, I assume we're done here, and that the quarter-fullers accept and even embrace the similarity between their 2013 attitude and that of the Toledo, Miami and Ohio fans those same Marshall fans used to disparage 15 years ago... embrace the similarity, and thus, embrace the hypocrisy.