Topic: CUSA 3.0 football. Weaker but stronger.

[DJdaHERDfan]

CUSA 3.0 will definitely seem weaker at first because of the weaker perception of the SBC additions and the fcs move ups.

Truth is, the SBC additions of MTSU, North Texas, FIU, FAU, WKU will be very competitive and will match up well with the CUSA 2.0 leftovers.
LaTech is a strong football program finally in a CUSA they love to call home.
LaTech is another Southern Miss/ Marshall type program.

Truth is, the only weakness in CUSA 3.0 will be from the newbies UTSA, Charlotte, and Old Dominion.
But let's break that down.
Old Dominion and UTSA will be competitive faster than most predict. Both programs are doing well. And both have the means and leadership to keep growing and get even better.

Which leaves us with Charlotte.
They literally are brand new. They will start a football program and literally jump in CUSA.
They will take their lumps.
They will be the weakest program in CUSA 3.0.

IF CUSA 3.0 should indeed go to 16, IMO it will be two of these schools.......Arkansas State, Louisiana, and *Delaware*. Yes I said Delaware. Yes, another FCS move up.
Yes, it is a possibility.

Last year, the SBC enjoyed its most successful year. And now CUSA has gutted SBC. Sound familiar?
CUSA 3.0 will be just fine in football.

[GreenBison]

CUSA 3.0 will definitely seem weaker at first because of the weaker perception of the SBC additions and the fcs move ups.

Truth is, the SBC additions of MTSU, North Texas, FIU, FAU, WKU will be very competitive and will match up well with the CUSA 2.0 leftovers.
LaTech is a strong football program finally in a CUSA they love to call home.
LaTech is another Southern Miss/ Marshall type program.

Truth is, the only weakness in CUSA 3.0 will be from the newbies UTSA, Charlotte, and Old Dominion.
But let's break that down.
Old Dominion and UTSA will be competitive faster than most predict. Both programs are doing well. And both have the means and leadership to keep growing and get even better.

Which leaves us with Charlotte.
They literally are brand new. They will start a football program and literally jump in CUSA.
They will take their lumps.
They will be the weakest program in CUSA 3.0.

IF CUSA 3.0 should indeed go to 16, IMO it will be two of these schools.......Arkansas State, Louisiana, and *Delaware*. Yes I said Delaware. Yes, another FCS move up.
Yes, it is a possibility.

Last year, the SBC enjoyed its most successful year. And now CUSA has gutted SBC. Sound familiar?
CUSA 3.0 will be just fine in football.

For the next grab I think they'll go west with Arky State or ULL.

[jstherd]

Very good post.

[MUsince96]

Winning percentage of 7 C-USA teams leaving since 2008 = .488

Winning percentage of 5 SBC + La Tech teams joining since 2008 = .393

I didn't include UTSA, ODU, and Charlotte for obvious reasons. Although the teams joining have a worse winning percentage it's not earth shattering or anything. Bottom line, go undefeated or lose one and we'll be BCS bowling unless somone like Boise State does the same. And doing so will be much easier in this league than MWC or C-TBA.

Just my take.


(edit-forgot La Tech in original post)

[Greg H]

I really want Ark St.  Had dinner in Jonesboro a few years ago and COULD NOT BELIEVE how rabbid their fans were.  They love that team.

[_sturt_]

Definitely seem weaker because of perceptions of SB and FCS? True.

SBC additions will be very competitive with the CUSA 2.0 leftovers? True. And in fact, I'd even add, they'd be competitive with most CUSA defectors as well.

Sooooo...

There's a step down in perception, but the games will be practically as difficult to win as what we've been experiencing.

Ummmm... and the the benefit to us in that?

Put it this way... if the talent level and competition is fairly stout in comparison to the defectors (and again, I agree that it will be comparable), the TRUTH IS, we are practically as unlikely to go undefeated in 3.0 as we did in 2.0, and certainly unlikely to dominate the conference as so many seem to imagine.

So, you have to think about this... if given the choice to lose to MTSU, ODU and Charlotte, or to lose to Houston, SMU and Tulsa, which is less respectable?

(Well, at least you could drive to see us lose to those schools, though, eh?)

If given the choice to beat ECU, UCF and Memphis, or to beat North Texas, UTSA and La Tech, which is going to garner us greater attention and respect on the Saturday football shows?

And yet...

CUSA 3.0 will be just fine in football.

Hmmmm...

Well, if one's definition of "fine" is merely the quality of the competition, I'll agree.

But if "fine" is that narrowly defined, the term is almost meaningless, in light of all of the other ways that one would ordinarily evaluate the situation if s/he didn't have prejudice toward a certain conclusion that they want to arrive at...

Indeed, how is it "fine" when...

(a) we have reason to expect, at best, 50% of the TV revenue currently enjoyed...

(b) we have reason to expect to fall behind MWC, C-TBN, and arguably, MAC in likelihood of filling the lone BCS berth...

(c) we have reason to expect about the same national regard as a Sun Belt or MAC, ie an after thought...

(d) we have reason to expect even worse TV exposure, and...

(e) we have reason to expect a Sun Belt-like slate of fewer bowl opportunities.

This is ridiculous, really.

Weeks of these conversations, and if you look back, practically every reply to my posts is a deflection... most often, a personal swipe at me, but sometimes abandoning the line of reasoning in a discussion to hop to some other track, or an attempt to introduce something anecdotal, or to introduce something that, in reality, has little bearing on the topic in term of the advancement of our program--ie, revenues, opportunity for the BCS berth or general prestige.

You guys deserve what you might be about to get.

The MAC fans were right about you. You only needed to experience some sustained mediocrity to become one of them.

And "you," by the way, isn't everyone here. ("You" might not include, DJ, either... seems to me he's still debating with himself.) You know who "you" are, though. After decades of admirably high expectations, you're now consciously accepting being pushed down the NCAA football hierarchy. You are premature in your assumption, and making it easy for administration to re-prioritize their agenda to fit with the bottom 20% of the bottom 50% of all NCAA FBS football.

God help us that Kopp is looking out for us, and in spite of little prompting from the fan base, doing all he can to keep us from this quicksand being called CUSA 3.0.

[Herdmeister]

Winning percentage of 7 C-USA teams leaving since 2008 = .488

Winning percentage of 5 SBC + La Tech teams joining since 2008 = .393

I didn't include UTSA, ODU, and Charlotte for obvious reasons. Although the teams joining have a worse winning percentage it's not earth shattering or anything. Bottom line, go undefeated or lose one and we'll be BCS bowling unless somone like Boise State does the same. And doing so will be much easier in this league than MWC or C-TBA.

Just my take.


(edit-forgot La Tech in original post)

agree. Just win and a BIG bowl game looms in our future.

[MUsince96]

Definitely seem weaker because of perceptions of SB and FCS? True.

SBC additions will be very competitive with the CUSA 2.0 leftovers? True. And in fact, I'd even add, they'd be competitive with most CUSA defectors as well.

Sooooo...

There's a step down in perception, but the games will be practically as difficult to win as what we've been experiencing.

Ummmm... and the the benefit to us in that?

Put it this way... if the talent level and competition is fairly stout in comparison to the defectors (and again, I agree that it will be comparable), the TRUTH IS, we are practically as unlikely to go undefeated in 3.0 as we did in 2.0, and certainly unlikely to dominate the conference as so many seem to imagine.

So, you have to think about this... if given the choice to lose to MTSU, ODU and Charlotte, or to lose to Houston, SMU and Tulsa, which is less respectable?

(Well, at least you could drive to see us lose to those schools, though, eh?)

If given the choice to beat ECU, UCF and Memphis, or to beat North Texas, UTSA and La Tech, which is going to garner us greater attention and respect on the Saturday football shows?

And yet...

CUSA 3.0 will be just fine in football.

Hmmmm...

Well, if one's definition of "fine" is merely the quality of the competition, I'll agree.

But if "fine" is that narrowly defined, the term is almost meaningless, in light of all of the other ways that one would ordinarily evaluate the situation if s/he didn't have prejudice toward a certain conclusion that they want to arrive at...

Indeed, how is it "fine" when...

(a) we have reason to expect, at best, 50% of the TV revenue currently enjoyed...

(b) we have reason to expect to fall behind MWC, C-TBN, and arguably, MAC in likelihood of filling the lone BCS berth...

(c) we have reason to expect about the same national regard as a Sun Belt or MAC, ie an after thought...

(d) we have reason to expect even worse TV exposure, and...

(e) we have reason to expect a Sun Belt-like slate of fewer bowl opportunities.

This is ridiculous, really.

Weeks of these conversations, and if you look back, practically every reply to my posts is a deflection... most often, a personal swipe at me, but sometimes abandoning the line of reasoning in a discussion to hop to some other track, or an attempt to introduce something anecdotal, or to introduce something that, in reality, has little bearing on the topic in term of the advancement of our program--ie, revenues, opportunity for the BCS berth or general prestige.

You guys deserve what you might be about to get.

The MAC fans were right about you. You only needed to experience some sustained mediocrity to become one of them.

And "you," by the way, isn't everyone here. ("You" might not include, DJ, either... seems to me he's still debating with himself.) You know who "you" are, though. After decades of admirably high expectations, you're now consciously accepting being pushed down the NCAA football hierarchy. You are premature in your assumption, and making it easy for administration to re-prioritize their agenda to fit with the bottom 20% of the bottom 50% of all NCAA FBS football.

God help us that Kopp is looking out for us, and in spite of little prompting from the fan base, doing all he can to keep us from this quicksand being called CUSA 3.0.

[_sturt_]

Weeks of these conversations, and if you look back, practically every reply to my posts is a deflection... most often, a personal swipe at me, but sometimes abandoning the line of reasoning in a discussion to hop to some other track, or an attempt to introduce something anecdotal, or to introduce something that, in reality, has little bearing on the topic in term of the advancement of our program--ie, revenues, opportunity for the BCS berth or general prestige.

(... oh yeah... thanks, 96... left that one out... )

And then there's the so-called Green Bison approach, which, at least, is straightforward and doesn't waste anyone's time... let's face it, sometimes, people prefer living in their bubble, determined not to let the facts get in the way of their conclusions... I appreciate the decision to just admit that up-front.

[_sturt_]

agree. Just win and a BIG bowl game looms in our future.

"Bowl?" Sure.

"Big?"

Not to burst anyone's bubble... but the reality is, as CUSA 3.0 champ, we'd fit-in right between the Sun Belt and the MAC, which... all kidding aside... would land us in a bowl similar to the one where their champions play... one that should be kinda familiar to many...



Now, I know very well where you're going with this "just win" thing... but if you're going to "just win," then you might as well "just win" where it actually is going to matter... actually going to perennially give you a shot at the BCS berth... to embrace a circumstance where we have to go undefeated, while other schools like ECU only have to win 9 or 10 games to get there... who does that?.. why embrace disadvantage, or more precisely, why embrace disadvantage *prematurely*?

Baffling.

[GreenBison]

In the grand scheme of football the winner of the CUSA championship and the winner of the A12 championship will get the same prize. No one outside of our "have not" family will really even care. ESPN will only highlight any of our wins (no matter which "have not" conference we're in) if we beat a ranked team. If we beat ECU... doesn't make a buzz, if we beat Houston... doesn't make a buzz, if we beat #6 KState... it creates a buzz.

So there's no point in arguing what conference we're in.. no one cares unless you're in the SEC.

[_sturt_]

In the grand scheme of football the winner of the CUSA championship and the winner of the A12 championship will get the same prize. No one outside of our "have not" family will really even care. ESPN will only highlight any of our wins (no matter which "have not" conference we're in) if we beat a ranked team. If we beat ECU... doesn't make a buzz, if we beat Houston... doesn't make a buzz, if we beat #6 KState... it creates a buzz.

So there's no point in arguing what conference we're in.. no one cares unless you're in the SEC.

Sounds nice, but unfortunately, it's a prediction that, in order to come true, would necessitate some some history-altering cause. Looking at the empirical history, not just emotion or conjecture... the facts just don't align with the assertion, as heart-warming as it might be.

That is, if one goes back and looks at the empirical history of the A12 schools and the history of the CUSA schools, the former group's top teams have, in most years, had a shot at the top BCS ranking going into the final weekend of the season... which, in the new era, will translate to having a shot at the biggest prize that a Go5 school can attain short of actually getting into the 4-team playoff... ie, the BCS berth...

Whereas the latter group's champion will have, as its prize, the GMAC/GoDaddy Bowl or its ilk.

Will the Go5 BCS berth school command the attention of a power conference champion? Not saying that.

But they will gain some attention, just like any underdog in any post-season gets attention. And whatever attention that is, it will be vastly more than the GoDaddy.com Bowl competitors.

[MUsince96]

What C-USA school had a shot at a BCS bowl besides the winner of Houston vs Southern Miss 2 years ago that would constitute most years?

[_sturt_]

What C-USA school had a shot at a BCS bowl besides the winner of Houston vs Southern Miss 2 years ago that would constitute most years?

Hold up.

It's only under the new agreement that the top Go5 school will automatically have a BCS berth. You did know that, right?

So, the point is to look at history to see what schools had a shot at having the top BCS ranking going into the final weekend through those years, ie, from among those that are Group of Five schools. Based on that, we can deduce what schools/conferences are most likely to compete in the future, and which ones are less likely.

[MUsince96]

Sounds nice, but unfortunately, it's a prediction that, in order to come true, would necessitate some some history-altering cause. Looking at the empirical history, not just emotion or conjecture... the facts just don't align with the assertion, as heart-warming as it might be.

That is, if one goes back and looks at the empirical history of the A12 schools and the history of the CUSA schools, the former group's top teams have, in most years, had a shot at the top BCS ranking going into the final weekend of the season... which, in the new era, will translate to having a shot at the biggest prize that a Go5 school can attain short of actually getting into the 4-team playoff... ie, the BCS berth...

Whereas the latter group's champion will have, as its prize, the GMAC/GoDaddy Bowl or its ilk.

Will the Go5 BCS berth school command the attention of a power conference champion? Not saying that.

But they will gain some attention, just like any underdog in any post-season gets attention. And whatever attention that is, it will be vastly more than the GoDaddy.com Bowl competitors.

Don't try and change your argument. You said the C-USA teams leaving in most years have had a shot at a BCS game most years at the end of the season. When besides 2 seasons ago when Houston played USM in the championship?

I'll answer for you. There hasn't been any other year. You have no objective, substantive evidence to back up anything you say.  Typing a novel in every thread doesn't hide you're just talking out of your ass.

[MUsince96]

So using the new Gang of 5 highest ranked BCS rule let's see who would have got it each year since 2005...

2005- Unkranked Boise State with most receiving votes. (MWC)
2006- 9th Boise State  (MWC)
2007- 10th Hawaii (MWC)
2008- 9th Boise State (MWC)
2009- 3rd Cincinnati (C-TBA)
2010- 10th Boise State (MWC)
2011- 7th Boise State (MWC)
2012- 15th Northern Illinois (MAC)

Hmm interesting.. 6 MWC teams, 1 MAC, and 1 C-TBA team in 8 years.

[_sturt_]

Don't try and change your argument. You said the C-USA teams leaving in most years have had a shot at a BCS game most years at the end of the season. When besides 2 seasons ago when Houston played USM in the championship?

I'll answer for you. There hasn't been any other year. You have no objective, substantive evidence to back up anything you say.  Typing a novel in every thread doesn't hide you're just talking out of your ass.

LOL... so, when you bold type my quote, do you not even bother READING the quote to see if it says what you said I said?

Wow. Friend, you need to slow down and stop tripping over your own tong... er... keyboard.

What I said:

had a shot at the top BCS ranking going into the final weekend of the season

What you said I said, but I clearly did not:

had a shot at a BCS game

[_sturt_]

So using the new Gang of 5 highest ranked BCS rule let's see who would have got it each year since 2005...

2005- Unkranked Boise State with most receiving votes. (MWC)
2006- 9th Boise State  (MWC)
2007- 10th Hawaii (MWC)
2008- 9th Boise State (MWC)
2009- 3rd Cincinnati (C-TBA)
2010- 10th Boise State (MWC)
2011- 7th Boise State (MWC)
2012- 15th Northern Illinois (MAC)

Hmm interesting.. 6 MWC teams, 1 MAC, and 1 C-TBA team in 8 years.

I know that list very well, I assure you.

And you seem to have trouble keeping up.

What I said:

the former group's top teams have, in most years, had a shot at the top BCS ranking going into the final weekend of the season

Indeed, MWC has dominated the actual champion. And if you want to analyze things based on that narrower criterion, fine.

But the larger point is captured by asking, which conferences have the schools that are most likely to be most competitive... ie, will have legitimate shots at the top BCS ranking going into the final weekend of the season...?

You can look it up for yourself, but I assure you, it's not good news for you or of the other quarter-fullers. But then, you really didn't expect that Sun Belt schools would be more competitive for a top BCS ranking than MWC or C-TBN schools anyhow, did you?

[MUsince96]

Psssst.  Top ranked BCS team gets the BCS game. You're arguing semantics my friend.

[_sturt_]

Psssst.  Top ranked BCS team gets the BCS game. You're arguing semantics my friend.

Oh stop. You're just being annoying now. And perhaps you could stand to re-visit what the phrase "arguing semantics" actually means... ironically enough. (And yeah, maybe look up "ironically" while you're at it, so you understand what I meant by that.)

...which, in the new era, will translate to having a shot at the biggest prize that a Go5 school can attain short of actually getting into the 4-team playoff...

 If you have any clue about the concept of "context," you know I was speaking expressly of Go5 schools.

[DJdaHERDfan]

I recall the WAC perception being a weak conference. Then a school by the name of Boise St took off and dominated.

CUSA 3.0 can become the best of the rest conference.

Marshall can be the next school to use their weak perception league to take off and dominate and become the next Boise St.

Yes it sucks that Herd is left behind but it's not the end of the world.
I agree with what Hamrick said about MU needing to focus on bettering MU in academics and athletics and raising funds for them purposes.
We can't do anything now.
But we can get off our a$$es and start preparing Marshall for the next time around. Whether that be in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years etc.

Mr. Hamrick does know what he is talking about in that particular subject.
He knows Marshall is not ready and is trying to get Marshall ready. But that takes fundraising and time.

MU is left out this time around.
But we're still in a national brand name league in CUSA.
We are in a southern league with closer conference mates for better fan travel and home attendance.
MU can be the new leader of this new CUSA.

Be happy we are not stuck in the MAC accepting stagnant mediocrity.  
Be happy we are not stuck in SBC begging to get in CUSA 3.0

Be happy that we have one of the best fundraising, facilities building, business minded ADs in the country. He may not make the best coaching hires but he can build up a school. Just ask ECU

[firstate]

need to kick out UAB

[_sturt_]

I recall the WAC perception being a weak conference. Then a school by the name of Boise St took off and dominated.

CUSA 3.0 can become the best of the rest conference.

Marshall can be the next school to use their weak perception league to take off and dominate and become the next Boise St.

Yes it sucks that Herd is left behind but it's not the end of the world.
I agree with what Hamrick said about MU needing to focus on bettering MU in academics and athletics and raising funds for them purposes.
We can't do anything now.
But we can get off our a$$es and start preparing Marshall for the next time around. Whether that be in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years etc.

Mr. Hamrick does know what he is talking about in that particular subject.
He knows Marshall is not ready and is trying to get Marshall ready. But that takes fundraising and time.

MU is left out this time around.
But we're still in a national brand name league in CUSA.
We are in a southern league with closer conference mates for better fan travel and home attendance.
MU can be the new leader of this new CUSA.

Be happy we are not stuck in the MAC accepting stagnant mediocrity.  
Be happy we are not stuck in SBC begging to get in CUSA 3.0

Be happy that we have one of the best fundraising, facilities building, business minded ADs in the country. He may not make the best coaching hires but he can build up a school. Just ask ECU

Post mortems like this... portraying everything as past tense... are counterproductive as long as there is, at least, one obvious political play to be made.

Our only hope is that Kopp hasn't given up as some fans have.

That they're not just accepting the idea but even applauding the idea of playing in a lesser conference is an indication that they are, in fact, accepting MAC-like mediocrity as long as they (think they) can win a few more games in a more regional conference.

For the rest of us, this is just premature and wrong.

[Penn2moss]

Any thread that Sturt posts in automatically begins sucking.

[MUsince96]

Any thread that Sturt posts in automatically begins sucking.

(Insert long winded retort with no objective or measurable data of any kind expressed as fact.)