Topic: HZ: Herd Fans Should Embrace `New' C-USA

[ZackUSAF82]

By Jack Bogaczyk
HERDZONE.COM COLUMNIST

HUNTINGTON – Happy New Year!

My calendar is not off by six months. And I’m not just speaking fiscally in delivering those new year wishes.

It should be a Happy New Year for Marshall, because today the Thundering Herd gets eight new partners in Conference USA.

Memphis, UCF, Houston and SMU are gone to “the American,” to be followed a year from now by East Carolina, Tulane and Tulsa.

Link: http://www.herdzone.com/genrel/070113aaa.html

[_sturt_]

Link: http://www.herdzone.com/genrel/070113aaa.html

These days Jack, like his friend Mike, gets paid to spin things as positive as possible and to avoid any acknowledgement of the negatives.

Let's be positive. There are things to like. But let's not be obliviously giddy. There are some ominous clouds on the horizon, and it's irresponsible to ignore them. We are about to become a southern mirror of the MAC competitively.

[BHFIOHIO]

Everything you said is true and we got to #10 by winning the MAC.....i'll take that in a heartbeat...just win baby!

[_sturt_]

Yeah... we got to #10 for one season, and if not for the lousy conference we played in, with the obligation of a lousy bowl tie-in, what could've been?

If you want a single solitary season of success every 20 years or so, you indeed should probably be satisfied to play in a conference essentially the southern equal to the MAC...and one that statistically equates to something a little worse than the ACC and a little better than the Big East.

If you want to perennially compete for the major bowl slot, on the other hand, you have to play in one that statistically equates to the SEC (AAC) or to the Big XII (MWC).

That's #1 of three things... play in a conference that overall is either the best or second-best... third best doesn't cut it... and notably, right now we place somewhere between MAC (#3) and Sun Belt (#5) by almost any way you want to slice-and-dice it.

#2 is to avoid losing more than one game.

#3 is to play and preferably win at least one game against a top 25 opponent.

[luvherd]

Some go to games, some bitch. I like it. Frankly wouldn't trade to get them Back.

[IM4DHERD]

We were the winning-est team in the NCAA throughout the 90's, not one single solitary season, and built one of the most recognizable brands in sport competing with those who we can afford to compete with and excelling against them.  We are now in a great position to excel again. A move to AAC (only option unless someone thinks we are ACC/Big XII, SEC, etc. material) would mean we are again at the bottom of the totem pole revenue-wise, lose the ability to take props, and lose fans and donors sfter struggling again to win even a division.  This is a current reality.  We can build again by winning in conference and going to bowls and as we build, take on some name OOC games.

[BHFIOHIO]

I'll be more than surprised if the AAC doesnt allow NQs after a yr or so of Doc eating their collective lunches at the recruiting table.

[_sturt_]

We were the winning-est team in the NCAA throughout the 90's, not one single solitary season, and built one of the most recognizable brands in sport competing with those who we can afford to compete with and excelling against them.  We are now in a great position to excel again. A move to AAC (only option unless someone thinks we are ACC/Big XII, SEC, etc. material) would mean we are again at the bottom of the totem pole revenue-wise, lose the ability to take props, and lose fans and donors sfter struggling again to win even a division.  This is a current reality.  We can build again by winning in conference and going to bowls and as we build, take on some name OOC games.

Single solitary season of being the pinnacle D1A "mid-major"/non-AQ/Go5 school... ie, the equivalent of being a true threat for the automatic major bowl slot in the future.

And since you brought it up... those three rules applied equally well to our years of dominance in I-AA and the SoCon.

Trying to become a strong perennial threat to attain the major bowl slot from the platform that is CUSA3.0 is going to be something like what the Ohio Valley Conference schools faced in comparison to SoCon and Gateway (eg, YSU)... subtract Furman, Appy and Ga Southern, and we wouldn't have been nearly as tested and competitive when facing OOC quality opponents.

Point being... we're in no position to be content.

[_sturt_]

I'll be more than surprised if the AAC doesnt allow NQs after a yr or so of Doc eating their collective lunches at the recruiting table.

That might make.somensense EXCEPT it's not as-if our ability to get props has fed into the program all these great players. We can get the 3 star guys as-is... it's the 4 and 5 guys that, if we get them, offten show-up as props... and they are rarely here after one season.

So in theory, what you're asserting makes some sense... but the reality is that it's not benefitted us.

[BHFIOHIO]

It doesnt matter what league. You still have to make some noise outside it. In the SC days we were cheated out of possible wins at NC St. In the Mac we had a couple big wins. It might be too soon to hope but a win over the Hokies and a good Conf run will earn us tons of respect, some based entirely on our history. Its just how it works whether justified or not. If Doc keeps landing the type players he has so far there will be a few of those like the Ks St win. Two months after that game Ks St beat OU convincingly for the Big 12 title. Fans can put that together. We just need to win and recruit. I think we are on the way.

[BHFIOHIO]

Hey Sturt...what about Vinny and Harvey? If you dont think our ability to take kids like Grooms and Butler and the two I just mentioned play into the big scheme, you are further off than I thought. Keep your eye peeled on the new #99. Hes another example. I promise it wont take long for him to be noticed. Maybe Turene also. Where you been man? Denero Mariott? Get real!

[IM4DHERD]

OK, here we go...

What can Marshall do to better our position?  Not what can the MAC and CUSA or anyone else who has no reason to do anything for us, do but what can we do?  No one is so much content, but most understand the realities.  Most expected us to continue in our role as media darlings and to win, win, win but:

We had a compliance director who did not catch the change in rules from 1-AA to 1-A in regards to jobs for props...For firing him for it, he now is recognized as an expert in the field, much like I suppose a burglar could be considered an expert in home security.  This cost us scholarships which hurt.  Bobby Pruett, who was perhaps our best field general although having a rough time and not recruiting to his best ability at the time, was run out of his position and more importantly a major mistake was made in hiring a replacement to appease a rich alumni.  Snyder tried to play a "3 yards and a cloud of dust" mentality and wanted to win with defense at the time we moved to a faster, stronger and more athletic CUSA.  We also started a 7 game series with WVU who was on a once in a 100-year run as a top 5-10 team.

There are myriad scenarios people can come up with to get us into the major bowl bid, but the one tried and true one is to win.  We are in our best position to win since 2001.  The only other option that is viable is for you and me and everhone else to give until we cannot give anymore or for us to find a T. Boone Pickens/Phil Night (Jim Justice?) type benefactor to get us to where we all want to be.

[BHFIOHIO]

Win CUSA and I am satisfied. Whether we ever get to be that one team or not. Being able to take NQs will help us to do both. If you dont understand this, you dont understand much. These are kids that would play for perennial top 25 programs if they had a test score. Instead they suit up in green and white. Some never live up to the billing but the one that do sure make their mark here. I am keeping my fingers crossed for the two receivers we have sitting out right now. I am in their corner. I will wash their laundry. Dig?

[whf]

I really don't get this argument any more.  Sure, winning is a wonderful thing and makes us feel good.  Sure, we are moving backward in competition and to deny that is having one's eyes closed.  However, it is done.  I personally hate it all.  I am tired of changing and being left behind. I am tired of stretching to gain entrance into C-USA and not being able to keep up with the majority of its status and esteem.  But I am also tired of worrying about it.  We have a school of over 15K students, 100,000 grads, and we have 3,000 people supporting our athletics directly with scholarship donations.

You can't stay with the big boys for long without money.  The wins we need aren't on the field, we have proven we can recruit kids to MU to play sports and get their educations; and we have proven we CAN"T recruit supporters to provide for their educations.

This isn't a sports competition; it is a financial competition and we have clearly been left behind because only 3,000 people really give a shix about this MU athletic program.

So while we can continue to argue about this new C-USA we take our eyes off the real argument; which is whether or not we will ever be able to fund a major NCAA athletic sports program. I am doubtful.

P.S.  The Admin's propaganda is getting really old.

[_sturt_]

It doesnt matter what league. You still have to make some noise outside it. In the SC days we were cheated out of possible wins at NC St. In the Mac we had a couple big wins. It might be too soon to hope but a win over the Hokies and a good Conf run will earn us tons of respect, some based entirely on our history. Its just how it works whether justified or not. If Doc keeps landing the type players he has so far there will be a few of those like the Ks St win. Two months after that game Ks St beat OU convincingly for the Big 12 title. Fans can put that together. We just need to win and recruit. I think we are on the way.

PERENNIAL. success requires all three to be true. You have wisely not challenged that assertion.

[_sturt_]

Hey Sturt...what about Vinny and Harvey? If you dont think our ability to take kids like Grooms and Butler and the two I just mentioned play into the big scheme, you are further off than I thought. Keep your eye peeled on the new #99. Hes another example. I promise it wont take long for him to be noticed. Maybe Turene also. Where you been man? Denero Mariott? Get real!-

I've addressed this in a post earlier this year...

 

I don't even know how to talk to this guy.  Every thread he posts in he has a different opinion from everyone else and mocks you for suggesting that he might not have every possibility figured out.

There was a time when Marshall moved up from 1-AA to the MAC.  Why were we able to make the transition better than any team ever has?  Because we didn't have 1-AA talent.  We had transfers like Moss, Kresser, etc. that were legitimate BCS caliber players.  We had more talent from day one in the MAC.  Why did we have more talent?  we had an advantage that they didn't have, we could take transfers that could play right away.  We also had be far the best facilities and the best fan support.  We kept that momentum rolling and dominated the MAC for years.  Things started to slow down toward the end of the Pruett years.  We were mediocre at best when moving to CUSA.  Instead of walking in as one of the best squads on day one, we walked in as one of the worst.  We have possibly the worst facilities in the conference.  A decade later, we are the definition of a CUSA mediocre team.  If we move up as we are now, use the vision money to buyout of the conference, cancel the facility upgrades, we will continue to be mediocre for a long time to come.

I know you disagree with this, but I truly believe we have the best opportunity to bust the BCS where we are.  All of the CUSA teams that moved up will be removed from the prop pool.  We can easily take 5 4 stars every year in our current position.  We will never be in the position to land that kind of talent without props and the teams in the BE can't either.  We have a big advantage over the BE just like we had over the MAC.  Lets stay here.

I appreciate the coherent reply.

So you say that being able to take 4-star props in 1-AA when our MAC competition could not made all of the difference... and that the MAC began catching up with us toward the end and that we have been mediocre in CUSA because all of them could also take props... correct?

Is it fair for me to give you a list of names?

Tyrell Smith. Josh Johnson. Darius Passmore. Jimmy Rogers. O.J. Murdock. Dexter Moody. Brian Robinson. Travon Van. Kevin Grooms. Amos Leggett.

Referencing Rivals and Scout, those are the 10 recruits since 2002 that Marshall has had that show up as having been rated 4-star.

How many of those guys are playing in the NFL today? How many of those guys even made all-conference? Started more than 2 seasons-worth of games? Even just stayed on the roster for 2 seasons?

4-star recruits that come to Marshall mostly have not panned out as meeting the expectations that go with their level of talent... sometimes, if not quite often, that's because off-the-field issues that confound their getting on the field... sometimes it could be a golden-boy state of mind that keeps them from working as hard as the lesser-starred peers.

So, while it's a more credible argument than just saying, "Well, I just think we'll do better," once again history suggests it's not exactly correct to say that that's going to make all the difference.

What you're saying is that you'd rather have 1/2 to 1/3 of the current TV income, a reduction in bowl opportunities, and a reduction in national reputation in return to have a few new props show up on the February recruit list every year, mostly 3 star guys, though maybe occasionally getting a 4-star prop... never mind how only a percentage of those... history shows... will actually get to school, stay in school, make the grades and stay on the field.

So I guess this is where we just have a difference of opinion. I'd rather maintain approximately the same money, same bowl opps, and same national reputation than to lose so much of that in exchange for a few props, a percentage of whom will ever even play ball for us, and a smaller percentage of whom will ever make a difference.

[_sturt_]

Win CUSA and I am satisfied. Whether we ever get to be that one team or not.

What's the difference b/t that perspective and what we've criticized MAC fans for?

Sad turn. Very.

[herdman]

I'll be more than surprised if the AAC doesnt allow NQs after a yr or so of Doc eating their collective lunches at the recruiting table.
-------------

I hope you are joking or are you being serious? Eat their lunch? They guy is 17-20 as a head coach. I am sure they are shaking in their shoes. UCF dominated us. You do understand that kids typically and by large margins want to compete at the highest level they can. You don't think a recruiter from the AAC is not going to say we left that conference and moved up? If Doc is this masterful recruiter why is he 17-20? Lot easier to recruit at NC State,wvu, and Florida than it is to be a head coach at Marshall.

[_sturt_]

I really don't get this argument any more.  Sure, winning is a wonderful thing and makes us feel good.  Sure, we are moving backward in competition and to deny that is having one's eyes closed.  However, it is done.  I personally hate it all.  I am tired of changing and being left behind. I am tired of stretching to gain entrance into C-USA and not being able to keep up with the majority of its status and esteem.  But I am also tired of worrying about it.  We have a school of over 15K students, 100,000 grads, and we have 3,000 people supporting our athletics directly with scholarship donations.

You can't stay with the big boys for long without money.  The wins we need aren't on the field, we have proven we can recruit kids to MU to play sports and get their educations; and we have proven we CAN"T recruit supporters to provide for their educations.

This isn't a sports competition; it is a financial competition and we have clearly been left behind because only 3,000 people really give a shix about this MU athletic program.

So while we can continue to argue about this new C-USA we take our eyes off the real argument; which is whether or not we will ever be able to fund a major NCAA athletic sports program. I am doubtful.

P.S.  The Admin's propaganda is getting really old.

If we've been at such a huge disadvantage, some people here owe our former coaches and perhaps even Kayo an.apology for expecting too much.

And there are things we can do to put ourselves in a better position...albeit some out-of-the-box things. Thankfully, Banowsky is an innovator, so it's plausible that we'll see something develop.

[herdman]

I really don't get this argument any more.  Sure, winning is a wonderful thing and makes us feel good.  Sure, we are moving backward in competition and to deny that is having one's eyes closed.  However, it is done.  I personally hate it all.  I am tired of changing and being left behind. I am tired of stretching to gain entrance into C-USA and not being able to keep up with the majority of its status and esteem.  But I am also tired of worrying about it.  We have a school of over 15K students, 100,000 grads, and we have 3,000 people supporting our athletics directly with scholarship donations.

You can't stay with the big boys for long without money.  The wins we need aren't on the field, we have proven we can recruit kids to MU to play sports and get their educations; and we have proven we CAN"T recruit supporters to provide for their educations.

This isn't a sports competition; it is a financial competition and we have clearly been left behind because only 3,000 people really give a shix about this MU athletic program.

So while we can continue to argue about this new C-USA we take our eyes off the real argument; which is whether or not we will ever be able to fund a major NCAA athletic sports program. I am doubtful.

P.S.  The Admin's propaganda is getting really old.

I agree with to a large degree. but, the single biggest problems we have had are we have not had coaches that are winning and an admin that had standards. The last two football hires have been questionable. Snyder was allowed to hang around too long and Doc was not qualified. Let's hope he wins this year, because it is set up perfectly for him. If we don't win this year(I am talking 8 or 9 games) then we are big doo doo again. At some point the admin has to decide do we want to be mediocre or do we want championships again. 

[BHFIOHIO]

If you guys dont like Mario Harvey, Vinny Curry, Kevin Grooms and Steward Butler, Devin Johnson  then I dont know what to say. And this last class Doc ate the lunch of UCF, ECU, Toledo, SMU, NIU, etc etc if you go by any of the main recruiting sites. Houston and Boise the only mid-major exceptions. And he did it off a losing record. I feel very confident with Shuler and Cato the next two yrs and Docs rep in south Fla that we are gonna eat their collective lunches. We'll see if Turene and J Brown are of value. Prob severa more in the 2013 class to go with AJL and McManus. Figure Doc knows a bit more than Sturt or Herdman. At least all the recruiting sites think so.

[SuperAnjario]

I'll be more than surprised if the AAC doesnt allow NQs after a yr or so of Doc eating their collective lunches at the recruiting table.
-------------

I hope you are joking or are you being serious? Eat their lunch? They guy is 17-20 as a head coach. I am sure they are shaking in their shoes. UCF dominated us. You do understand that kids typically and by large margins want to compete at the highest level they can. You don't think a recruiter from the AAC is not going to say we left that conference and moved up? If Doc is this masterful recruiter why is he 17-20? Lot easier to recruit at NC State,wvu, and Florida than it is to be a head coach at Marshall.

We already recruit at a level above or equal to all/most AAC teams.  We were beating most of those teams even when they had the Big East distinction.  Also, most people (not butthurt over getting an invite to hang out with the metro "cool kids") won't consider the AAC a step up, at all.  We share bowl games with them & our TV money & exposure are allessentially the same.  All the AAC is is a conference of metro area schools that thought they were joining Louisville, Rutgers, UConn, UC, & UCF.  Instead, Louisville & Rutgers left UC, USF, & UConn holding the bag. 

The most striking thing about this round of realignment wasn't the big leap forward the teams joining the AAC made.  The biggest story was a power league completely & totally disintegrating (the Big East) into what's essentially a Metro/CUSA1 mash up.  The money was slashed.  Exposure slashed.  Those teams were promised very big numbers & got about 1/8th of what they were hoping to get.  They're happy to be free of the schools they consider beneath them that aren't in big metro areas, but that's really all they gained.  They essentially moved to a portion of the playground they think is cooler, but we all still go to the same school, have the same teachers, & have the same opportunity.  It's just my opinion, but many on the board make way too big of a deal out of this.  It'll be forgotten extremely quickly once the season starts.

Anyone remember how excited we were after beating Memphis & Houston during last year's football season?  Oh, that's right, no one was excited or cared.  Why are we upset these teams are leaving?  Our fans didn't care about them (and I mean all of them), at all, to begin with.  None of them moved the needle.

The difference between these leagues is de minimis.  Same access.  Same money.  Same exposure.  Winning is what will separate teams in the Group of 5.  If you're in the MAC & go 12-0 & win your league, odds are you'll get a huge bowl game.  If you're in the AAC or CUSA and go 11-1 or 12-0 & win your league, odds are you'll get the big bowl game.  We're all fighting for the same thing. 

[IM4DHERD]

Agreed...A 12-1 CUSA team = a 11-2 AAC team or MWC team.  We have our work cut out for us.

[MarshallGrad]

Everything you said is true and we got to #10 by winning the MAC.....i'll take that in a heartbeat...just win baby!

A big +1 on that one.

[_sturt_]

If you guys dont like Mario Harvey, Vinny Curry, Kevin Grooms and Steward Butler, Devin Johnson  then I dont know what to say. And this last class Doc ate the lunch of UCF, ECU, Toledo, SMU, NIU, etc etc if you go by any of the main recruiting sites. Houston and Boise the only mid-major exceptions. And he did it off a losing record. I feel very confident with Shuler and Cato the next two yrs and Docs rep in south Fla that we are gonna eat their collective lunches. We'll see if Turene and J Brown are of value. Prob severa more in the 2013 class to go with AJL and McManus. Figure Doc knows a bit more than Sturt or Herdman. At least all the recruiting sites think so.

You misread me. I was responding to the assertion that being able to recruit props is a big deal.

Hear me.

The props who have been big deals for us have been 3-star players... and we routinely are able to bring in our share of 3-star players... it's not like we're reliant on the prop rule to provide us with players at that level.

The population of players that we have less access to are the 4-star players... and thus, that's where the prop rule would help us... but as rehearsed/explained above... not so much, actually.

I completely respect Doc's ability to recruit. In fact, when you figure in this additional woe-is-us-how-bad-our-private-fundraising-is-in-comparison mantra that's sprung up... both Doc and Mark Snyder should be more fully appreciated than ever. Evidently, neither one should have ever been able to deliver us from the basement of CUSA.