Topic: So after sleeping on it

[MU42]

I have decided that our offense has success in spite of Legg. He has to go for us to take the next step. Surely we can hire an up and coming play caller that will be creative. The problem is that Doc will never fire him. How can we let Mike Hamrick know that Legg needs to go? Just saying it on twitter won't help, and not going to the games hurts the entire program. So how do you protest the OC?

[IM4DHERD]

I just don't get it.  I am a big fan of our coaches but continue to hear how people hate Legg, while Heater is a the bright spot in the staff.  It's been pretty ugly all around so far, but offensively we are ranked:

Tied for 33 in scoring
#74 in Total offense
41 in Pass offense

Defensively however:

118 in total D
122 in passing yards allowed
124 in passing efficiency D
123 in scoring D

I like Heater, but if you want to put the blame on someone, maybe people are looking in the wrong place.  It was the defense who allowed 20 first qtr points vs. Pitt.  It was the defense who let Akron score 44 points.

Lucky we aren't at Navy or Georgia Tech watching triple options play if people are only upset because they they are bored.

[2xBison]

I like to start at the top myself, with Doc.

[36thunder]

I just don't get it.  I am a big fan of our coaches but continue to hear how people hate Legg, while Heater is a the bright spot in the staff.  It's been pretty ugly all around so far, but offensively we are ranked:

Tied for 33 in scoring
#74 in Total offense
41 in Pass offense

Defensively however:

118 in total D
122 in passing yards allowed
124 in passing efficiency D
123 in scoring D

I like Heater, but if you want to put the blame on someone, maybe people are looking in the wrong place.  It was the defense who allowed 20 first qtr points vs. Pitt.  It was the defense who let Akron score 44 points.

Lucky we aren't at Navy or Georgia Tech watching triple options play if people are only upset because they they are bored.

Too many players get kicked off the team or don't show up. It starts with doc.

[QuickStrike]

Starts with Doc.

[Surbadger]

Too many players get kicked off the team or don't show up. It starts with doc.

So you want thugs and criminals on the team? If you want to be in the spotlight like Alabama with players carrying guns and weed in the middle of the night in downtown Huntington, then keep complaining about Doc.

[Flat Tire 2]

So you want %^)#@s and criminals on the team? If you want to be in the spotlight like Alabama with players carrying guns and weed in the middle of the night in downtown Huntington, then keep complaining about Doc.

 Apples to oranges, we are not Alabama. How about Solich, I don't believe he has a team of "criminals"? It can be done correctly.

Question, is Doc taking too many chances on players who either academically or socially challenge? Some on this board are posting that attrition seems to be a problem? Maybe someone can do some research on our recruiting?

[DC01HERD]

Doc is the head coach and it starts with him. 0-3 against teams with a heartbeat.

[QuickStrike]

So you want %^)#@s and criminals on the team? If you want to be in the spotlight like Alabama with players carrying guns and weed in the middle of the night in downtown Huntington, then keep complaining about Doc.

No one is saying let criminals continue to play on this team.  The point is Doc is the one that recruited them onto the team.  He is the one that needs to do a better job of identifying the character traits of who he brings on this team, and/or do a better job of noticing when a player is turning towards criminal activity.  They are suppose to be student athletes who we can count on to be here for a 4 or 5 year career.  If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character.  To continue to recruit certain type of players and have to kick them off the team is insane.  Do a better job of noticing that crap before we bring them on the team.

[MUalumni0912]

Starts with Doc.

Funny how in the offseason, you didn't call for his head when he made these decisions. Several on here praised (and have praised) him for trying to keep the program clean and not troublesome.


http://www.espn.com/espn/wire?section=ncf&id=7525479

Of course, this was from 4 years ago, but I imagine it's pretty much the same as it is now. You see/read of players either leaving programs for smaller ones and for (as I said) pretty much anything. Appleby left Purdue after we beat them, for Florida. Some highly regarded Florida QB got kicked off the team and went to morganhole to backup their overrated QB.
Hell, Cole Garvin left and went to South Alabama and they just beat San Diego State (after beating Mississippi State earlier in the year).
You also have to factor in coaches and coordinators who leave for greener pastures or just get fired. That leaves a rift in the recruiting as well as attrition of a program.
New coaches come in, with schemes that do not fit the style of incumbent players, said players transfer, it's no hard feelings, its NCAA football AKA a business.

Then ya got the people who do dumb stuff on the team...need we remind ourselves of the highly touted recruits who made Papa John's re-think their franchises here? Or about some of the players having multiple run-ins with the law in general, now being reduced to nothing?
How would they have panned out had they been good, who knows, at this point, who cares? Seems like you guys keep looking into that whole element to somehow justify your right to be mad at Doc presently.
Everyone came down on the players (rightfully so) for their actions...are these guys "kids" when they're 18 years old and given a pretty straightforward set of rules like, "Don't commit crimes" (which, sadly, most of these recruits know what crimes are and how they are committed).
I find it strange several would likely fill you up with stories of how bad life was for them back home, knowing how everything goes down and having experience with some rough stuff, yet when given the opportunity to avoid it and become everything they set out to be, they just regress back to their old selves...Psychologically it's likely a coping mechanism to deal with the pressures and stresses of being a D-1 athlete, reverting back to what you know to feel comfortable, even if it's the wrong thing.

Anyways, this whole "it starts with Doc" crap is old and useless at this point. He's going to continue to dismiss players who violate the rules. For protection of the players, we have no right to know what those rules specifically are, but a guy who's been around Urban Meyer, Florida, wvu, and NC State, likely has a good idea of what sort of rules those are, and has an idea of how lenient he should be to them.


Heater is a great and solid coach, but looking at how our defense has played (minus Louisville) it's not exactly been a solid year for him...
I'm not calling for his head or anything, but as it was said, the blame seems to be squarely on the offense with the defense, looking absolutely terrible in the first half last night.

Not to mention, Doc left some of the dismissal decisions up, to the team, and it wasn't always his call.


Gentlemen, what we are talking about here is a morality element of sports...and it's one that is subjective as well.


You're right, we aren't Alabama, we can't afford to lose players as much as they do, but attrition is difficult, even at the top level and for various reasons (besides the coaching staff which several on here seem to simple-mindedly blame continuously).
But Alabama and Saban would literally give a player $10,000 in front of the NCAA infractions committee with another student athlete paid specifically to yell, "Just try something" at them...and get away with it.

It's actually become a social problem for many, when you let people just run around and do what they want. Look at Baylor. Imagine if Briles had actually, you know, DONE SOMETHING rather than just let it go.
Florida State? Known now as the CrimiNOLES?
Miami? "Bunch of thugs"?
Penn State, now Ped State?

Baylor has a very good chance of having the hammer slammed on them. They don't have the connections someone like Texas or Alabama would have, they are a private school with no real consistent history of success before RG3 was there.
Due to his firing, it's unclear how Baylor will recover, sure, they are winning with a new coach, but for how long? Briles had 7 recruits de-commit once they found out he was fired.
One of the better coaches in the country, is going to have a very negative social perception about him for a very, very long time...it will affect his future and the program who hires him (Petrino seemed like he wouldn't ever be hired but look at him now).
Do we want that?
Is the cost of winning that important we sacrifice what we attempt to uphold, which is a respectable program? I ask you to consider this because if you feel we should, then dismissal of problem players is gonna happen regardless, and some are going to be pretty tough.
Ultimately it IS up the coaching staff to adjust, and that ain't easy to do, but don't toss them under the bus when we take a loss, because I'll take a loss over a possibly forever looming negative social stereotype...as if you WVians don't have it bad enough since you're lumped together with drunken idiots up North and, for some reason, still are associated with Virginia (trust us, we don't like it either).

Or, if you want to be a part of the winning program, at whatever cost it's gonna be, do two things;
1. Consider your life and the fact you're willing to do such a thing and figure out if there's more to your life and value...because if there isn't, that's kinda sad.
2. I'm sure Wal-Mart has lots of UK and Alabama gear for you to wear...go near Texas and I'm sure you'll find some Baylor stuff as well.

[2xBison]

No one is saying let criminals continue to play on this team.  The point is Doc is the one that recruited them onto the team.  He is the one that needs to do a better job of identifying the character traits of who he brings on this team, and/or do a better job of noticing when a player is turning towards criminal activity.  They are suppose to be student athletes who we can count on to be here for a 4 or 5 year career.  If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character.  To continue to recruit certain type of players and have to kick them off the team is insane.  Do a better job of noticing that crap before we bring them on the team.

a lot of guys get sent packing without an arrest.  Houston, huskey, AJL 1 and AJL 2..........who knows with all the attrition.  our program keeps secrets better that the state department, maybe that's because Doc can't use email.

[Herdalum83]

I put more blame on Legg than I do Heater because Heater doesn't have much he can do at this point. We are just lacking talent all over the secondary. Offensively, we have the talent and the ability to put points on the board, Legg and the offense have to help the defense by moving the ball, getting first downs, eating clock and hopefully scoring points. But, the three and outs, burning less than a minute of game clock are absolutely back breaking when you have a struggling defense.

Now, with the said. Heater has to quit being stubborn. Time and time again Chris Jackson is either getting scorched or getting flagged. Help the true freshman out and play more zone coverage. The kid just doesn't have it yet to be able to be out on that island alone yet and we keep putting him out there and asking him to cover one-on-one. That's doing nothing but killing this kid's confidence.

[MUalumni0912]

No one is saying let criminals continue to play on this team.  The point is Doc is the one that recruited them onto the team.  He is the one that needs to do a better job of identifying the character traits of who he brings on this team, and/or do a better job of noticing when a player is turning towards criminal activity. They are suppose to be student athletes who we can count on to be here for a 4 or 5 year career.  If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character.  To continue to recruit certain type of players and have to kick them off the team is insane.  Do a better job of noticing that crap before we bring them on the team.

You realize you just contradicted yourself?

Soooo...

Do you believe in Psychics?
Because that's what they do.

We should fire Doc and hire Ms. Cleo. Oh, wait, she's dead. Damn, are there any other psychics we could hire, to, you know, predict someone's personality traits and their future for our football program?
I'm sure Saban and Petrino have all the good ones locked up, wait, who are they again? I don't know who the psychics they have on their staff are, care to enlighten me?
Oh, they don't have them? That'd make Marshall unique, wouldn't it? We'd be the first NCAA team to have a paid psychic on staff to evaluate players' futures, based ENTIRELY on speculation.

Hell, just employ someone to memorize the Barnum Effect and you could hit a very high percentage of players' personalities on that alone.

"If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character."
Wow, you've figured all this out on your own, haven't you?
Talking about State Department, you have no business here, you should be hired by them. Hey, I bet you can figure out amazingly helpful other things like, "If you point a gun at someone, it's loaded, and squeeze the trigger, the gun will fire a bullet at them." "If our military aims missiles in this direction, they're likely to explode there."

What you're asking for, is basically what every.single.freaking.coach.does.on.a.yearly.basis.

Do you honestly think programs WANT problem athletes?

Marshall's product for some, is they get a second chance, which other schools may not have offered. I imagine Doc has told them something like,
"Look, Marshall is well aware of your past (if there was a problem), you have us to really turn yourself around. We have facilities to help you become what you want to be. It's up to YOU to take advantage of that."

The player, enters into the contract with this knowledge and the freedom of choice. Doc enters into this, knowing he has recruited someone with a possible shaky past.

BOTH KNOW THEY WILL SEPARATE PARTIES IF THE PLAYER DISREGARDS THE TEAM POLICY AND RULES, LAID OUT BEFORE THEM.

I am certain Doc gets some of these guys, knowing they could be trouble, but THEY also know they could be trouble, but are given another opportunity.

What was the name of that one guy who kept getting into trouble all the time? He had like 3 arrests, but he kept promising to change, even went and got baptized, but ultimately couldn't maintain himself and he was dismissed?
Honestly, I'm merely speculating here, but that could be what changed Doc's mentality in some ways in all this. I dunno.

But to say he just tosses people out with no reason, is inaccurate in my opinion. Do you think he WANTS to dismiss players? No, he brought them on for a second chance...and speak of his actions, resonate in the high school and JC ranks...so he needs to maintain himself.

Goodness man, expecting a coach to know how a player is going to pan out after the culture shock, is a bit too much, even for Baylor and Alabama standards.

[QuickStrike]

You realize you just contradicted yourself?

Soooo...

Do you believe in Psychics?
Because that's what they do.

We should fire Doc and hire Ms. Cleo. Oh, wait, she's dead. Damn, are there any other psychics we could hire, to, you know, predict someone's personality traits and their future for our football program?
I'm sure Saban and Petrino have all the good ones locked up, wait, who are they again? I don't know who the psychics they have on their staff are, care to enlighten me?
Oh, they don't have them? That'd make Marshall unique, wouldn't it? We'd be the first NCAA team to have a paid psychic on staff to evaluate players' futures, based ENTIRELY on speculation.

Hell, just employ someone to memorize the Barnum Effect and you could hit a very high percentage of players' personalities on that alone.

"If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character."
Wow, you've figured all this out on your own, haven't you?
Talking about State Department, you have no business here, you should be hired by them. Hey, I bet you can figure out amazingly helpful other things like, "If you point a gun at someone, it's loaded, and squeeze the trigger, the gun will fire a bullet at them." "If our military aims missiles in this direction, they're likely to explode there."

What you're asking for, is basically what every.single.freaking.coach.does.on.a.yearly.basis.

Do you honestly think programs WANT problem athletes?

Marshall's product for some, is they get a second chance, which other schools may not have offered. I imagine Doc has told them something like,
"Look, Marshall is well aware of your past (if there was a problem), you have us to really turn yourself around. We have facilities to help you become what you want to be. It's up to YOU to take advantage of that."

The player, enters into the contract with this knowledge and the freedom of choice. Doc enters into this, knowing he has recruited someone with a possible shaky past.

BOTH KNOW THEY WILL SEPARATE PARTIES IF THE PLAYER DISREGARDS THE TEAM POLICY AND RULES, LAID OUT BEFORE THEM.

I am certain Doc gets some of these guys, knowing they could be trouble, but THEY also know they could be trouble, but are given another opportunity.

What was the name of that one guy who kept getting into trouble all the time? He had like 3 arrests, but he kept promising to change, even went and got baptized, but ultimately couldn't maintain himself and he was dismissed?
Honestly, I'm merely speculating here, but that could be what changed Doc's mentality in some ways in all this. I dunno.

But to say he just tosses people out with no reason, is inaccurate in my opinion. Do you think he WANTS to dismiss players? No, he brought them on for a second chance...and speak of his actions, resonate in the high school and JC ranks...so he needs to maintain himself.

Goodness man, expecting a coach to know how a player is going to pan out after the culture shock, is a bit too much, even for Baylor and Alabama standards.

I.diot

[HaveUherd]

Wow.

Not in the mood to read novels today.

[MUalumni0912]

Wow.

Not in the mood to read novels today.

Fixed it to describe the state legislature...

Learn to spell "idiot" before you write.

I put more blame on Legg than I do Heater because Heater doesn't have much he can do at this point. We are just lacking talent all over the secondary. Offensively, we have the talent and the ability to put points on the board, Legg and the offense have to help the defense by moving the ball, getting first downs, eating clock and hopefully scoring points. But, the three and outs, burning less than a minute of game clock are absolutely back breaking when you have a struggling defense.

Now, with the said. Heater has to quit being stubborn. Time and time again Chris Jackson is either getting scorched or getting flagged. Help the true freshman out and play more zone coverage. The kid just doesn't have it yet to be able to be out on that island alone yet and we keep putting him out there and asking him to cover one-on-one. That's doing nothing but killing this kid's confidence.

That's funny because the defense was pretty stout the week prior against the #3 team in the country.
It was a major element of praise from what was otherwise a pretty lopsided game.

So you want us to not be cupcake with the offense and make our backup QB throw constantly against a team with a good secondary, but are totally fine with cupcaking the defense to a more "comfortable" fit for a player?

I'll admit, Heater HAS had a depleted defense, not his fault, not even Doc's fault honestly. But our offense ALSO lost talent as well...yet they can still score points.

I recall how much Rippon was rightfully torn apart by you guys because of our offense always "being 7 points behind." Well, we were in similar situations last night.

You're making excuses for a statistical issue...

I just don't get it.  I am a big fan of our coaches but continue to hear how people hate Legg, while Heater is a the bright spot in the staff.  It's been pretty ugly all around so far, but offensively we are ranked:

Tied for 33 in scoring
#74 in Total offense
41 in Pass offense

Defensively however:

118 in total D
122 in passing yards allowed
124 in passing efficiency D
123 in scoring D

Hell, my question is, does ANYONE read?

[Flat Tire 2]

You realize you just contradicted yourself?

Soooo...

Do you believe in Psychics?
Because that's what they do.

We should fire Doc and hire Ms. Cleo. Oh, wait, she's dead. Damn, are there any other psychics we could hire, to, you know, predict someone's personality traits and their future for our football program?
I'm sure Saban and Petrino have all the good ones locked up, wait, who are they again? I don't know who the psychics they have on their staff are, care to enlighten me?
Oh, they don't have them? That'd make Marshall unique, wouldn't it? We'd be the first NCAA team to have a paid psychic on staff to evaluate players' futures, based ENTIRELY on speculation.

Hell, just employ someone to memorize the Barnum Effect and you could hit a very high percentage of players' personalities on that alone.

"If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character."
Wow, you've figured all this out on your own, haven't you?
Talking about State Department, you have no business here, you should be hired by them. Hey, I bet you can figure out amazingly helpful other things like, "If you point a gun at someone, it's loaded, and squeeze the trigger, the gun will fire a bullet at them." "If our military aims missiles in this direction, they're likely to explode there."

What you're asking for, is basically what every.single.freaking.coach.does.on.a.yearly.basis.

Do you honestly think programs WANT problem athletes?

Marshall's product for some, is they get a second chance, which other schools may not have offered. I imagine Doc has told them something like,
"Look, Marshall is well aware of your past (if there was a problem), you have us to really turn yourself around. We have facilities to help you become what you want to be. It's up to YOU to take advantage of that."

The player, enters into the contract with this knowledge and the freedom of choice. Doc enters into this, knowing he has recruited someone with a possible shaky past.

BOTH KNOW THEY WILL SEPARATE PARTIES IF THE PLAYER DISREGARDS THE TEAM POLICY AND RULES, LAID OUT BEFORE THEM.

I am certain Doc gets some of these guys, knowing they could be trouble, but THEY also know they could be trouble, but are given another opportunity.

What was the name of that one guy who kept getting into trouble all the time? He had like 3 arrests, but he kept promising to change, even went and got baptized, but ultimately couldn't maintain himself and he was dismissed?
Honestly, I'm merely speculating here, but that could be what changed Doc's mentality in some ways in all this. I dunno.

But to say he just tosses people out with no reason, is inaccurate in my opinion. Do you think he WANTS to dismiss players? No, he brought them on for a second chance...and speak of his actions, resonate in the high school and JC ranks...so he needs to maintain himself.

Goodness man, expecting a coach to know how a player is going to pan out after the culture shock, is a bit too much, even for Baylor and Alabama standards.

I don't have the time or the inclination to read the entire above post. I did read  your last sentence and have a question for you? How do the other coaches at our level (Solich) manage not to make the mistakes on recruiting players? Leave out FSU; Bama and Baylor as examples; we are not competing at that level.

[HaveUherd]

No, dude.

No one reads your long winded garbage that you could've put into 1 or 2 paragraphs. 

[MUalumni0912]

I don't have the time or the inclination to read the entire above post. I did read  your last sentence and have a question for you? How do the other coaches at our level (Solich) manage not to make the mistakes on recruiting players? Leave out FSU; Bama and Baylor as examples; we are not competing at that level.

Well you probably should, lots of points in there.

But ok, lets see. Solich...he's a perfect fit for Ohio...good enough to win 8-9 games a season but can't quite get over the hump to the next level and really compete. Ohio is fine with 8-9 wins a season, but Marshall and 8-9 wins is considered an underachievement.
As for his players? Well, http://www.cleveland19.com/Global/story.asp?s=5479890&clienttype=printable

Now, that was like in 2006 or a while ago, coming after Solich was doing his best Huggins impression.
He likely gets a pass because of he not having his players and style.

But, you have an interesting dynamic in college sports. With Solich, he goes and gets less problem athletes (probably, because ohio state keeps coming up when you search for OU) the trade off, they may not be the best player.
Doc goes out and gets the best player with the trade off being they may not be the most stable of person.

Lots also has to do with the athlete themselves and how much they believe they can make it to the next level.

Solich goes and recruits a player good enough for 8-9 wins a season. Doc goes for someone who is good enough for 11-12 wins a season.
Solich shops for the Ford Focus, Doc shops for the Porsche. Focus doesn't require as much maitenance but won't go as fast as a Porsche, but Porsche needs better maitenance.

Hope that helps.

[svherd]

No one is saying let criminals continue to play on this team.  The point is Doc is the one that recruited them onto the team.  He is the one that needs to do a better job of identifying the character traits of who he brings on this team, and/or do a better job of noticing when a player is turning towards criminal activity.  They are suppose to be student athletes who we can count on to be here for a 4 or 5 year career.  If the talent, speed, strength, skills are similar give the scholarship to the kid with the good character.  To continue to recruit certain type of players and have to kick them off the team is insane.  Do a better job of noticing that crap before we bring them on the team.

AMEN and AMEN!  The attrition is killing our depth and consistency of play. That leads to losses!

[MUalumni0912]

AMEN and AMEN!  The attrition is killing our depth and consistency of play. That leads to losses!

Thing is, this is a problem several programs have. Its actually why the G5 will get a solid player here and there. We can't afford to lose them however, well, we can but lack of exerience doesn't help.

[Ovaltine Jenkins]

My view is that if you're going to recruit troubled players, support systems and diversion programs should be in place.  A one strike and you're out policy which seems to be Doc's approach isn't helpful to the kid or the team long term. 

While each case should be determined on the merits, giving up on a kid who could have an impact both on and off the field is a knee jerk approach in my opinion.

[goherd24]

The attrition isn't killing us. We still have the talent on the field to win games.

We have the offensive talent to be a top 20 statistic offense. We do that and our defense, that looks really bad on paper, would jump drastically. Sure, they look terrible because our offense does nothing but put them in bad positions.

Doc and his lack of aggressive gameplanning, is costing us as well.

The 2nd half of that game last night is how we should be coached all the time. Go for it on 4th and short inside the opponents 40, or even at midfield if you are losing by multiple tds. Use the minute before half to try to get into scoring position for at least a field goal. Those little things make a difference.

Also, Heater does need to blitz more often and we need to give our corners some help in coverage schemes. I LOVE man to man, one on one coverage. But these guys cant get that done, and thats ok, but give them some help.

Alot of things wrong with out program and its not because of the lack of talent on the field (minus our corners). And fans need to remember that beating outclassed opponents like charlotte, fia, fau, etc, doesn't make it all better. We will not beat any decent football teams right now.

[Herdalum83]

Fixed it to describe the state legislature...

Learn to spell "idiot" before you write.

That's funny because the defense was pretty stout the week prior against the #3 team in the country.
It was a major element of praise from what was otherwise a pretty lopsided game.

So you want us to not be cupcake with the offense and make our backup QB throw constantly against a team with a good secondary, but are totally fine with cupcaking the defense to a more "comfortable" fit for a player?

I'll admit, Heater HAS had a depleted defense, not his fault, not even Doc's fault honestly. But our offense ALSO lost talent as well...yet they can still score points.

I recall how much Rippon was rightfully torn apart by you guys because of our offense always "being 7 points behind." Well, we were in similar situations last night.

You're making excuses for a statistical issue...

Hell, my question is, does ANYONE read?

What the hell are you even talking about? I never said to cupcake anything. Our corners especially Chris Jackson have been dominated. Yet, we keep asking them to cover one-on-one time after time. It's not cupcaking to recognize that your talent in the secondary is out matched by the talent across from them and counter act that by playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, that's just called coaching.

[MUalumni0912]

What the hell are you even talking about? I never said to cupcake anything. Our corners especially Chris Jackson have been dominated. Yet, we keep asking them to cover one-on-one time after time. It's not cupcaking to recognize that your talent in the secondary is out matched by the talent across from them and counter act that by playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, that's just called coaching.

We tried that. They either ran right through us or quick slanted it. He also kept committing penalties, whoever he was covering got into his head to have him make 3 PI calls. Plus our CB's won't turn their heads...why, I don't know, but you can't blame Legg for that one.