Topic: So after sleeping on it

[MUalumni0912]

My view is that if you're going to recruit troubled players, support systems and diversion programs should be in place.  A one strike and you're out policy which seems to be Doc's approach isn't helpful to the kid or the team long term. 

While each case should be determined on the merits, giving up on a kid who could have an impact both on and off the field is a knee jerk approach in my opinion.

...and how many of those players may have already had strikes before they came here?
Our most notable WR in history had...how many?
Some of these players have been disciplined by their programs prior to landing here.

[Flat Tire 2]

Well you probably should, lots of points in there.

But ok, lets see. Solich...he's a perfect fit for Ohio...good enough to win 8-9 games a season but can't quite get over the hump to the next level and really compete. Ohio is fine with 8-9 wins a season, but Marshall and 8-9 wins is considered an underachievement.
As for his players? Well, http://www.cleveland19.com/Global/story.asp?s=5479890&clienttype=printable

Now, that was like in 2006 or a while ago, coming after Solich was doing his best Huggins impression.
He likely gets a pass because of he not having his players and style.

But, you have an interesting dynamic in college sports. With Solich, he goes and gets less problem athletes (probably, because ohio state keeps coming up when you search for OU) the trade off, they may not be the best player.
Doc goes out and gets the best player with the trade off being they may not be the most stable of person.

Lots also has to do with the athlete themselves and how much they believe they can make it to the next level.

Solich goes and recruits a player good enough for 8-9 wins a season. Doc goes for someone who is good enough for 11-12 wins a season.
Solich shops for the Ford Focus, Doc shops for the Porsche. Focus doesn't require as much maitenance but won't go as fast as a Porsche, but Porsche needs better maitenance.

Hope that helps.

I believe Solich is 4-2 versus Doc? Thank goodness we didn't play them this year or it might have been 5-2. I don't think we are on the next level compared to OU. Doc also has not won a conference championship like Solich; we play in the same level of bowls; and there is no difference between the Mac and our conference.

Hope that helps. ;)

[Herdalum83]

We tried that. They either ran right through us or quick slanted it. He also kept committing penalties, whoever he was covering got into his head to have him make 3 PI calls. Plus our CB's won't turn their heads...why, I don't know, but you can't blame Legg for that one.

He has been called for PI every game. It isn't because anyone is in his head, it's because he's getting beat and interfering or holding is all he can do oright he'd give up even more big plays. He committing penalties out of necessity. Also we have gave very little zone looks this season most of the quick slants we are giving up occur in man-to-man with our corner lined up to the outside shoulder of the WR with no help from the linebacker to the inside the quick slant can be thrown all day!

[MUther]

An important thing to remember about any defense is that teams are going to score points against them.  Most of the mitigation of their points comes from time of possession.  If our offense constantly goes 3 and out, is willing to punt on a very short 4th past midfield, will not try to score inside the 35 rather than punt, then we are going to give them lots of possession time to play around with and find ways to move the ball. 

We have to be the ones doing this to the other team.  Move the ball at all costs, maintain clock management, use any opportunity to end a drive with something on the scoreboard, don't use a 5 yard play when you need 10 yards on third down.  I'd rather see an attempted 40-50 yard field goal than a 40 yard punt that GUARANTEES they get the ball with no points for us and our defense back on the field again.

Could our defense play better at times?  Certainly.  Could they get a lot of help from our offense moving the ball and finishing?  You better believe it.  We used to wear opposing defenses down by constantly having our offense on the field and coming away with points and by using a hurry up scheme that left them unable to get the right personnel on the field and look at what we're doing.  I haven't seen any of that fast lining up, next play ready, taking their defense out of the game playcalling.  That style almost single-handedly gave us our 2013 wins.  Devon Johnson got us the bulk of 2014 wins by moving the ball, as evidenced by the score of games he wasn't playing in that year, coupled with a lot of Cato to Shuler to keep them honest.  Point is we limited other teams scoring opportunity with our offense as much as defense.

WKU 2014 is a good case in point.  Drives stalled with 5  receiver sets and no RB or interception 1st half.  WKU had the ball way too much and scored with it.  Second half we actually hung on to the ball and sustained some drives, thereby limiting their possessions and mounted a huge comeback.  They didn't score half of what they did in the first half.  Offensive playcalling was adjusted.  Defense was the same and their offense was the same.  Our offense changed and gave us a chance.

[MUalumni0912]

I believe Solich is 4-2 versus Doc? Thank goodness we didn't play them this year or it might have been 5-2. I don't think we are on the next level compared to OU. Doc also has not won a conference championship like Solich; we play in the same level of bowls; and there is no difference between the Mac and our conference.

Hope that helps. ;)

 

Well, you seemed to ignore the majority of what I said...
First off, alright, Doc has a losing record against Solich. Many coaches do against others, despite having had better talent.

But the overall body of work from OU, IS lower than Marshall's.
Solich may have Doc's number but he's won the East of the MAC just 3 times since he took over and has NEVER won the conference championship.
In fact, he famously blew a 20-0 halftime lead to NIU who ended up winning it...he also got handled by CMU twice I believe.
Thats because his level and body of work isn't consistent enough to make Ohio U become more of what they could be.
Its good e ough to win 8-9 games and not much else.
He's also 2-7 in bowl games while Doc is unbeaten.
Solich has also had 5 years on Doc, being hired in 2005...
Not exactly the world achiever Marshall would want.
But his athletes (I guess, I don't follow OU nor have arrest records), stay, just may not be the best you could get.

[Herdalum83]

An important thing to remember about any defense is that teams are going to score points against them.  Most of the mitigation of their points comes from time of possession.  If our offense constantly goes 3 and out, is willing to punt on a very short 4th past midfield, will not try to score inside the 35 rather than punt, then we are going to give them lots of possession time to play around with and find ways to move the ball. 

We have to be the ones doing this to the other team.  Move the ball at all costs, maintain clock management, use any opportunity to end a drive with something on the scoreboard, don't use a 5 yard play when you need 10 yards on third down.  I'd rather see an attempted 40-50 yard field goal than a 40 yard punt that GUARANTEES they get the ball with no points for us and our defense back on the field again.

Could our defense play better at times?  Certainly.  Could they get a lot of help from our offense moving the ball and finishing?  You better believe it.  We used to wear opposing defenses down by constantly having our offense on the field and coming away with points and by using a hurry up scheme that left them unable to get the right personnel on the field and look at what we're doing.  I haven't seen any of that fast lining up, next play ready, taking their defense out of the game playcalling.  That style almost single-handedly gave us our 2013 wins.  Devon Johnson got us the bulk of 2014 wins by moving the ball, as evidenced by the score of games he wasn't playing in that year, coupled with a lot of Cato to Shuler to keep them honest.  Point is we limited other teams scoring opportunity with our offense as much as defense.

WKU 2014 is a good case in point.  Drives stalled with 5  receiver sets and no RB or interception 1st half.  WKU had the ball way too much and scored with it.  Second half we actually hung on to the ball and sustained some drives, thereby limiting their possessions and mounted a huge comeback.  They didn't score half of what they did in the first half.  Offensive playcalling was adjusted.  Defense was the same and their offense was the same.  Our offense changed and gave us a chance.

Exactly the point I was trying to make it my first post in this thread. Well said.

[MUalumni0912]

An important thing to remember about any defense is that teams are going to score points against them.  Most of the mitigation of their points comes from time of possession.  If our offense constantly goes 3 and out, is willing to punt on a very short 4th past midfield, will not try to score inside the 35 rather than punt, then we are going to give them lots of possession time to play around with and find ways to move the ball. 

We have to be the ones doing this to the other team.  Move the ball at all costs, maintain clock management, use any opportunity to end a drive with something on the scoreboard, don't use a 5 yard play when you need 10 yards on third down.  I'd rather see an attempted 40-50 yard field goal than a 40 yard punt that GUARANTEES they get the ball with no points for us and our defense back on the field again.

Could our defense play better at times?  Certainly.  Could they get a lot of help from our offense moving the ball and finishing?  You better believe it.  We used to wear opposing defenses down by constantly having our offense on the field and coming away with points and by using a hurry up scheme that left them unable to get the right personnel on the field and look at what we're doing.  I haven't seen any of that fast lining up, next play ready, taking their defense out of the game playcalling.  That style almost single-handedly gave us our 2013 wins.  Devon Johnson got us the bulk of 2014 wins by moving the ball, as evidenced by the score of games he wasn't playing in that year, coupled with a lot of Cato to Shuler to keep them honest.  Point is we limited other teams scoring opportunity with our offense as much as defense.

WKU 2014 is a good case in point.  Drives stalled with 5  receiver sets and no RB or interception 1st half.  WKU had the ball way too much and scored with it.  Second half we actually hung on to the ball and sustained some drives, thereby limiting their possessions and mounted a huge comeback.  They didn't score half of what they did in the first half.  Offensive playcalling was adjusted.  Defense was the same and their offense was the same.  Our offense changed and gave us a chance.

I'm going to add, we are also limited with Litton. Did he run at all? I don't think he did. That takes a big threat off our scheme since he is just coming off of a Concussion...so naturally he would be hesitant to get hit, or we just didn't want to risk it. Cato was a major threat because he was mobile, which when combined with Rockhead and our offense overall, was going to be hard to defend.
I hope Litton gets better enough to start holding the ball and running for 6-7 yards, it will surely help.

[36thunder]

I'm going to add, we are also limited with Litton. Did he run at all? I don't think he did. That takes a big threat off our scheme since he is just coming off of a Concussion...so naturally he would be hesitant to get hit, or we just didn't want to risk it. Cato was a major threat because he was mobile, which when combined with Rockhead and our offense overall, was going to be hard to defend.
I hope Litton gets better enough to start holding the ball and running for 6-7 yards, it will surely help.

What's the most a qb has actually kept the ball in one game? Our base offense is the read option. Only there is rarely an option. It's always predetermined. An end will crash 5 times in a row before, again, a predetermined "option" keeper is called.

[36thunder]

So you want %^)#@s and criminals on the team? If you want to be in the spotlight like Alabama with players carrying guns and weed in the middle of the night in downtown Huntington, then keep complaining about Doc.

Lol. Sure man. Apparently we are like Alabama with players carrying guns in the middle of Huntington. So yes I will keep complaining about doc. Being a great recruiter don't mean much if you can't keep them here. These kids don't just decide to have issues because they are at Marshall. The issues are there before arrival.

[MUalumni0912]

Lol. Sure man. Apparently we are like Alabama with players carrying guns in the middle of Huntington. So yes I will keep complaining about doc. Being a great recruiter don't mean much if you can't keep them here. These kids don't just decide to have issues because they are at Marshall. The issues are there before arrival.

Which is why the idea of a "Second Chance" doesn't seem to resonate with them as much as it should.
It's a gamble to do this, but it can pay off.
Personally, I'd prefer Doc go and find the overlooked player who dedicates himself to the program, like Cato, but even those are few and far between.
Litton seems to be following in the footsteps.

We have a highly rated QB/Athlete from Alabama, redshirting right now...I haven't a clue how that'll pan out, we'll have to wait and see.

Perhaps better relations with former players, emphasizing the importance of the second chance they may never get again, should be in the works? But with the NFL schedule, it may be tough for some.
Or just the value of doing what they're doing...

[coalherd]

I just don't get it.  I am a big fan of our coaches but continue to hear how people hate Legg, while Heater is a the bright spot in the staff.  It's been pretty ugly all around so far, but offensively we are ranked:

Tied for 33 in scoring
#74 in Total offense
41 in Pass offense

Defensively however:

118 in total D
122 in passing yards allowed
124 in passing efficiency D
123 in scoring D

I like Heater, but if you want to put the blame on someone, maybe people are looking in the wrong place.  It was the defense who allowed 20 first qtr points vs. Pitt.  It was the defense who let Akron score 44 points.

Lucky we aren't at Navy or Georgia Tech watching triple options play if people are only upset because they they are bored.

IM4DHERD, have to believe there is ONE real reason for all the above stats:  MORGAN STATE.  These cumulative stats would be a lot different when only applied to the games we have played against TEAMS THAT HAD A PULSE (as well as legit D-1 talent)!!